How many degrees to retard per pound of boost?
09-28-2006, 05:19 PM
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How many degrees to retard per pound of boost?
Hey all, well since the darn search button doesn't work I guess I'll have to post.
My setup is:
84mm benson sleeved block
wiseco pistons
eagle 3/8" rods
cr-fab ramhorn manifold
garrett t3/60-1
Anyway, at 21lbs of boost I made 424whp/289ft lbs tq. I want to turn the boost up to 26-28 lbs of boost tomorrow on the dyno with 110 octane, and was wondering how many degrees to retard per pound of boost with 26-28 psi in uberdata? Perhaps some of the tuners can chime in. And also, what should total timing be set at ? Thanks
My setup is:
84mm benson sleeved block
wiseco pistons
eagle 3/8" rods
cr-fab ramhorn manifold
garrett t3/60-1
Anyway, at 21lbs of boost I made 424whp/289ft lbs tq. I want to turn the boost up to 26-28 lbs of boost tomorrow on the dyno with 110 octane, and was wondering how many degrees to retard per pound of boost with 26-28 psi in uberdata? Perhaps some of the tuners can chime in. And also, what should total timing be set at ? Thanks
09-28-2006, 05:34 PM
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Re: How many degrees to retard per pound of boost? (B18 CYA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18 CYA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey all, well since the darn search button doesn't work I guess I'll have to post.
My setup is:
84mm benson sleeved block
wiseco pistons
eagle 3/8" rods
cr-fab ramhorn manifold
garrett t3/60-1
Anyway, at 21lbs of boost I made 424whp/289ft lbs tq. I want to turn the boost up to 26-28 lbs of boost tomorrow on the dyno with 110 octane, and was wondering how many degrees to retard per pound of boost with 26-28 psi in uberdata? Perhaps some of the tuners can chime in. And also, what should total timing be set at ? Thanks </TD></TR></TABLE>
well if you made 424 @21psi with 93 octane . then just retarted it 2-4 degrees and regap the plugs .004 from what it was since you are running higher octane you will have less chance for dentanation anyways
My setup is:
84mm benson sleeved block
wiseco pistons
eagle 3/8" rods
cr-fab ramhorn manifold
garrett t3/60-1
Anyway, at 21lbs of boost I made 424whp/289ft lbs tq. I want to turn the boost up to 26-28 lbs of boost tomorrow on the dyno with 110 octane, and was wondering how many degrees to retard per pound of boost with 26-28 psi in uberdata? Perhaps some of the tuners can chime in. And also, what should total timing be set at ? Thanks
</TD></TR></TABLE>well if you made 424 @21psi with 93 octane . then just retarted it 2-4 degrees and regap the plugs .004 from what it was since you are running higher octane you will have less chance for dentanation anyways
09-28-2006, 05:59 PM
#3
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race gas is a completely different monster to work with.
on a 9:1 b series 84mm you can usually go about .75 deg per lb of boost (power output and other varying conditions/parts can change this).
id go with something close to about .5 deg per lb of boost with 110 octane but every motor is different and reading the plugs can get you a feel of how much timing you can run along with various other methods.
on a 9:1 b series 84mm you can usually go about .75 deg per lb of boost (power output and other varying conditions/parts can change this).
id go with something close to about .5 deg per lb of boost with 110 octane but every motor is different and reading the plugs can get you a feel of how much timing you can run along with various other methods.
09-29-2006, 02:48 AM
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well, with 110 octane, at 21 psi I am at 18* timing...
Also, if you have 12 degrees of timing at 20 psi, isn't that 0.6 of timing retard per psi?
0.6 x 20 = 12 degrees?
Also, if you have 12 degrees of timing at 20 psi, isn't that 0.6 of timing retard per psi?
0.6 x 20 = 12 degrees?
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09-29-2006, 06:27 AM
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Re: (B18 CYA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18 CYA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, with 110 octane, at 21 psi I am at 18* timing...
Also, if you have 12 degrees of timing at 20 psi, isn't that 0.6 of timing retard per psi?
0.6 x 20 = 12 degrees?</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you go by this equation, you will have more total timing the more you retard the timing... you have that wrong.
Also, if you have 12 degrees of timing at 20 psi, isn't that 0.6 of timing retard per psi?
0.6 x 20 = 12 degrees?</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you go by this equation, you will have more total timing the more you retard the timing... you have that wrong.
09-29-2006, 07:00 AM
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Re: How many degrees to retard per pound of boost? (B18 CYA)
At 20psi on a stock B20 I'm running 20.5* of timing with no issues. That's on E85 which is 105 octane.
09-29-2006, 07:23 AM
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Re: (ndogg)
Hmm, whats the proper equation?
Would 18* be safe to start off with at 26psi on the dyno? Then I can start tuning ignition timing from there. I just want a safe point to start off with...
Would 18* be safe to start off with at 26psi on the dyno? Then I can start tuning ignition timing from there. I just want a safe point to start off with...
09-29-2006, 07:56 AM
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Re: (B18 CYA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18 CYA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmm, whats the proper equation?
Would 18* be safe to start off with at 26psi on the dyno? Then I can start tuning ignition timing from there. I just want a safe point to start off with...</TD></TR></TABLE>
lets say your timing at 0 is 30*. if your total timing is 12* you have retarded it by 18*. so you retard is 18*/psi. if you are at 25psi, you retarded it .72
if you run 18* total at 26psi, you have a (30-18)/26 = .46 per pound retard. i would not start there.
Would 18* be safe to start off with at 26psi on the dyno? Then I can start tuning ignition timing from there. I just want a safe point to start off with...</TD></TR></TABLE>
lets say your timing at 0 is 30*. if your total timing is 12* you have retarded it by 18*. so you retard is 18*/psi. if you are at 25psi, you retarded it .72
if you run 18* total at 26psi, you have a (30-18)/26 = .46 per pound retard. i would not start there.
09-29-2006, 07:58 AM
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Re: (B18 CYA)
Turbocharged vehicles are knock limited as far as timing goes. If it were N/A you can have it on the dyno at certain load cells and just adjust timing for power. A turbocharged motor will typically need more timing than you can give it (knock limited) to make best power because of the octane of the fuel.
If you have two of the exact same turbo setups on the same motor. One dyno session on 93 octane and one on 110 octane, same boost levels and everything, you'll potentially make more power with 110 octane because you can run more timing on it.
18* might be safe considering I'm running 20.5* across the board with 20psi. At the same time though, IAT's and the exact fuel and motor setup that you have will ultimately deteremine where your timing needs to be at.
If you have two of the exact same turbo setups on the same motor. One dyno session on 93 octane and one on 110 octane, same boost levels and everything, you'll potentially make more power with 110 octane because you can run more timing on it.
18* might be safe considering I'm running 20.5* across the board with 20psi. At the same time though, IAT's and the exact fuel and motor setup that you have will ultimately deteremine where your timing needs to be at.
09-29-2006, 08:25 AM
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Re: (backpurge)
Jeff Evans posted on his site a while back that when he starts off a tune, he retards 1* per psi which is considered safe I guess. When he reaches his desired power level, he then leaves everything as is, but does several more pulls on the dyno, ONLY advancing 1* every time until he reaches MBTT (if i remember correctly) which is Max Brake Torque.
MBTT is the point at which your peak torque remains the same as the previous pull, even after adding a * of timing. At this point, he pulls the 1* of timing that didnt make any torque and sets it back to what it was on the previous dyno pull.
MBTT is the point at which your peak torque remains the same as the previous pull, even after adding a * of timing. At this point, he pulls the 1* of timing that didnt make any torque and sets it back to what it was on the previous dyno pull.
09-29-2006, 11:58 AM
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Re: (B18 CYA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18 CYA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> if you have 12 degrees of timing at 20 psi, isn't that 0.6 of timing retard per psi?
0.6 x 20 = 12 degrees?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I never stated my total timnig at 0" vacuum
0.6 x 20 = 12 degrees?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I never stated my total timnig at 0" vacuum
09-29-2006, 01:50 PM
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Re: (vxhatched)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vxhatched »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You need to get a real fuel management to be able to last a long time. (Hondata or Neptune)
No uberdata you are not going to last long. being honest. sorry</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you explain why? Neptune, Hondata, Uberdata and Crome are all rom editors that work in conjunction with the stock ecu.
No uberdata you are not going to last long. being honest. sorry</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you explain why? Neptune, Hondata, Uberdata and Crome are all rom editors that work in conjunction with the stock ecu.
09-29-2006, 02:07 PM
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Re: (Ti3d in)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ti3d in »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Can you explain why? Neptune, Hondata, Uberdata and Crome are all rom editors that work in conjunction with the stock ecu. </TD></TR></TABLE>
He read so on Honda-Tech. That is a good enough reason in and of itself.
He read so on Honda-Tech. That is a good enough reason in and of itself.
09-29-2006, 05:09 PM
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Re: (vxhatched)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vxhatched »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You need to get a real fuel management to be able to last a long time. (Hondata or Neptune)
No uberdata you are not going to last long. being honest. sorry</TD></TR></TABLE>
Although I'm not a fan of Uberdata, I would not go as far as saying it won't last with it. It will work just fine.
No uberdata you are not going to last long. being honest. sorry</TD></TR></TABLE>
Although I'm not a fan of Uberdata, I would not go as far as saying it won't last with it. It will work just fine.
09-29-2006, 08:42 PM
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Re: (vxhatched)
not to sound stupid or ask dumb questions, but dont all of those programs run off of the stock ecu, similar to a piggyback. The only real diff i have found is that u dont have to pay hundreds of dollars for the setup, and anyone can tune it
09-29-2006, 09:03 PM
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Re: (bstdlsteg69)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vxhatched »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You need to get a real fuel management to be able to last a long time. (Hondata or Neptune)
No uberdata you are not going to last long. being honest. sorry</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ha ha that is probably what the tuner that *** raped him told him.
No uberdata you are not going to last long. being honest. sorry</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ha ha that is probably what the tuner that *** raped him told him.
09-29-2006, 09:10 PM
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Re: (bstdlsteg69)
I think what most people fail to realize is that the timing in the map is not usually what it actually is. There are differences from not having the distributor not synced with the ecu. Also, the Honda Computer adjusts timing on the fly depending on IAT, ECT, etc...
I have seen 18 Degrees in the MAP be 26 Degrees of actual Timing. Some Programs (Not Naming any Names) allow you to lock timing in the map to the actual timing above a certain boost level.
So there is solid number you put in and have it be right. Every setup is different...
Bore Size, Stroke, Ported\Unported Heads, all come into play...I have tuned so many cars that had on paper the exact same setups, yet their final timing maps were completely different. Everyone has their own methods...Jeff Evan's method would be a good one to follow. This also depends on if it's a built engine or a stock one...there's so many different varibables to how I approach a given tune. I could go on for hours...
I have seen 18 Degrees in the MAP be 26 Degrees of actual Timing. Some Programs (Not Naming any Names) allow you to lock timing in the map to the actual timing above a certain boost level.
So there is solid number you put in and have it be right. Every setup is different...
Bore Size, Stroke, Ported\Unported Heads, all come into play...I have tuned so many cars that had on paper the exact same setups, yet their final timing maps were completely different. Everyone has their own methods...Jeff Evan's method would be a good one to follow. This also depends on if it's a built engine or a stock one...there's so many different varibables to how I approach a given tune. I could go on for hours...
09-30-2006, 04:58 AM
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for street tuning a stock motor, is there a rule of thumb for timing. like jeff evans said. 1 degree per psi.
How do you sink dist time and ecu time?
does crome pro allow you to lock timing?
How do you sink dist time and ecu time?
does crome pro allow you to lock timing?