How cold can you go?
08-29-2003, 07:34 AM
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How cold can you go?
Ok, Right off the bet I’ll let every one know that I’m a complete nube, so if I get scolded for posting this here I’m just wondering if anyone has gone to this extreme.
My question is: has anyone attempted to pump Freon in to an air to liquid intercooler unit, or if this is physically impossible (since I’m not 100% sure on how air to liquid intercoolers are constructed and what are the chemical limits of the material their usually made form), has anyone attempted to incorporate the major cooling elements from an air conditioning unit (not necessarily the native car AC) with an intercooler system.
My logic is: When dealing with forced induction we want to try and cool down the condense air as much as possible, when you walk in to a hot room, you start up an ac unit and the air coming out of it is almost instantaneously cool if not freezing. The power consumption of a standard mid range home ac unit could not be much greater then the power that goes to some of the big thumping 15” woofers people put in their cars, so if we can get over the fact that we’re keeping a stock pulley on the alternator (or putting a faster one on) we can harness the freezing power of an ac unit. Granted we would have to modify that AC system and probably we’ll need more power that we would like to give to an electrical unit under the hood but this makes so much more sense then just poring ice water in to the intercooler, or just having ramming air blowing through one. Is this feasible, is it necessary to make colder air or is regular intercooler air cold enough, would this allow a compressor to “spool” more air on it’s way to the intake since the cooling element will be extreme enough to condense the air even more? Will this work or am I full of sh**
My question is: has anyone attempted to pump Freon in to an air to liquid intercooler unit, or if this is physically impossible (since I’m not 100% sure on how air to liquid intercoolers are constructed and what are the chemical limits of the material their usually made form), has anyone attempted to incorporate the major cooling elements from an air conditioning unit (not necessarily the native car AC) with an intercooler system.
My logic is: When dealing with forced induction we want to try and cool down the condense air as much as possible, when you walk in to a hot room, you start up an ac unit and the air coming out of it is almost instantaneously cool if not freezing. The power consumption of a standard mid range home ac unit could not be much greater then the power that goes to some of the big thumping 15” woofers people put in their cars, so if we can get over the fact that we’re keeping a stock pulley on the alternator (or putting a faster one on) we can harness the freezing power of an ac unit. Granted we would have to modify that AC system and probably we’ll need more power that we would like to give to an electrical unit under the hood but this makes so much more sense then just poring ice water in to the intercooler, or just having ramming air blowing through one. Is this feasible, is it necessary to make colder air or is regular intercooler air cold enough, would this allow a compressor to “spool” more air on it’s way to the intake since the cooling element will be extreme enough to condense the air even more? Will this work or am I full of sh**
08-29-2003, 07:40 AM
#3
Re: How cold can you go? (inquisitor)
I have pondered the idea of using freon to cool the air/liquid intercooler set-up. I dont think it would be overly hard to make it work, and the stock a/c pieces would suffice for cooling down the intercooler unit. The key thing would be to have a long core to get the charge to cool to maximum effectiveness. You would have to get special fittings welded onto the air/liquid core to be able to accept the stock fittings/ac lines.
08-29-2003, 09:49 AM
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How much air does your engine flow?
For 300 hp you need 450 scfm of air.
At STP you need 1.08 btus to lower the temperature of 1 scfm of air by 1F.
Therefore you are going to need 486 btus of cooling for each 1F drop in temperature.
So for a 30F drop in temperature youre going to need 14580 btus of cooling. Thats a pretty good size air conditioner.
Fixed my math errorsModified by Mighty at 2:09 PM 8/29/2003
Modified by Mighty at 2:12 PM 8/29/2003
For 300 hp you need 450 scfm of air.
At STP you need 1.08 btus to lower the temperature of 1 scfm of air by 1F.
Therefore you are going to need 486 btus of cooling for each 1F drop in temperature.
So for a 30F drop in temperature youre going to need 14580 btus of cooling. Thats a pretty good size air conditioner.
Fixed my math errorsModified by Mighty at 2:09 PM 8/29/2003
Modified by Mighty at 2:12 PM 8/29/2003
08-29-2003, 09:52 AM
#5
Re: (Mighty)
The stock AC can drop the temperature to at least 20-30 degrees below ambient for the entire cabin of the car. The core of the air/liquid unit is 20x smaller than the inside cabin of the car, it would drop the temperature to at least 20-30 degrees below ambient. I have no data on the stock AC system, but it should work.
08-29-2003, 11:23 AM
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Re: (Mighty)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mighty »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How much air does your engine flow?
For 300 hp you need 450 scfm of air.
At STP you need 1.08 btus to lower the temperature of 1 scfm of air by 1F.
Therefore you are going to need 486 btus of cooling for each 1F drop in temperature.
So for a 30F drop in temperature youre going to need 14580 btus of cooling. Thats a pretty good size air conditioner.
[/i]</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is all purely theoretical I don’t have forced induction on my integra I was just thinking about the possibility of fabricating something like that and the benefits it could bring.
If your talking about flowing air through an intercooler then a Freon radiator inside the intercooler type contraption would come to mind, if your talking about air to liquid the only guys that do something similar, that I could find, were these guys: http://www.coolflow.com/intrac...r.htm (this is not a plug just found these guys on the net I’m totally un-bias, I don’t even have a turbo setup) but they use a mixture of water and antifreeze, no one I could find uses Freon, some simply use ice water for 2 ¼ mile runs then they have to change it.
I don’t understand why no one pumps Freon, it lasts for eons, you can have an 15k btu ac in your house that will last 3-4 years before you have to refill the tank, and the tank itself is no bigger then a 2 liter Coke bottle with a pump being no bigger then a 6 pack. On the btu issue, your right that is a lot of power to drive under the hood but if you look at the home ac unit, how much of that power is invested in actually trying to blow the air across the room? and how much to circulate the Freon? I think that once you take away that bulky fan and that 15lb motor that drives it the only thing you have to power is the pump so it won’t be as much. So you get a bigger battery and speed up the alternator wouldn’t that be worth making that air colder and denser, plus once you do accomplish this aren’t you allowing more air to enter the intercooler seeing as the air already in it is colder and denser? The only potential problem I see is condensation. The air would get to cold and too condensed and will be begin turning up moisture, but that can be relived with a filter valve something similar to the one aem puts on their cold intakes but on a smaller scale.
Any who I’m not and AC guru and I’m deff not an intercooler systems buff either but I’v taken enough broken ac’s apart to make me think of this
For 300 hp you need 450 scfm of air.
At STP you need 1.08 btus to lower the temperature of 1 scfm of air by 1F.
Therefore you are going to need 486 btus of cooling for each 1F drop in temperature.
So for a 30F drop in temperature youre going to need 14580 btus of cooling. Thats a pretty good size air conditioner.
[/i]</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is all purely theoretical I don’t have forced induction on my integra I was just thinking about the possibility of fabricating something like that and the benefits it could bring.
If your talking about flowing air through an intercooler then a Freon radiator inside the intercooler type contraption would come to mind, if your talking about air to liquid the only guys that do something similar, that I could find, were these guys: http://www.coolflow.com/intrac...r.htm (this is not a plug just found these guys on the net I’m totally un-bias, I don’t even have a turbo setup) but they use a mixture of water and antifreeze, no one I could find uses Freon, some simply use ice water for 2 ¼ mile runs then they have to change it.
I don’t understand why no one pumps Freon, it lasts for eons, you can have an 15k btu ac in your house that will last 3-4 years before you have to refill the tank, and the tank itself is no bigger then a 2 liter Coke bottle with a pump being no bigger then a 6 pack. On the btu issue, your right that is a lot of power to drive under the hood but if you look at the home ac unit, how much of that power is invested in actually trying to blow the air across the room? and how much to circulate the Freon? I think that once you take away that bulky fan and that 15lb motor that drives it the only thing you have to power is the pump so it won’t be as much. So you get a bigger battery and speed up the alternator wouldn’t that be worth making that air colder and denser, plus once you do accomplish this aren’t you allowing more air to enter the intercooler seeing as the air already in it is colder and denser? The only potential problem I see is condensation. The air would get to cold and too condensed and will be begin turning up moisture, but that can be relived with a filter valve something similar to the one aem puts on their cold intakes but on a smaller scale.
Any who I’m not and AC guru and I’m deff not an intercooler systems buff either but I’v taken enough broken ac’s apart to make me think of this
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