Hondata has Nitrous Control
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu, HI, USA
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (HIPEmotorsports)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HIPEmotorsports »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for the guys at hondata if you read this forum before you read yours 
Hey guys,
keep up the good work. I was really pleased to see the Nitrous option. Here are a few suggestions which would not require a lot of re-programming and could be really beneficial to users.
You have a provision for dry set up but not for wet. you have two outputs for nitrous solenoids acc(a15) pcs(a20). From what i see you can only use one at a time. What if you had an option on the top for wet kit and if you put a checkmark on it, then you can use one output for nitrous solenoid and one for fuel solenoid. This would enable guys to run big shots without using the injectors and just relying on jetting. For instance on a 100 shot people will have to upgrade injectors but if done this way hondata is only functioning as a trigger for both solenoids.
This way people with wet kits do not have to be worried about cost of bigger injectors, idle problems with bigger injectors, tuning time to get the fuel parameters right for nitrous.
Also i like the idea of having parameters/conditions for nitrous to be activated.
Minimun engine speed, throttle opening, minimum vehicle speed are well thought of. Another parameter, which i think could be added and used is max engine speed for nitrous. I can give you 3 examples where it can help and save motors
People using nitrous to spool turbos want nitrous to kick in at lets say 3000 rpm but get full spool at 5500-6000 rpm there is no way for them to shut it except manually.
Another example is revlimit with nitrous. It is very concerning, tuners can always set nos to shut of 200 rpms before revlimit. for instance rev limit is 8500 rpm but tuner can cut of nitrous at max engine speed of 8300. This could prevent a few catastrophies.
Think about full throttle shifting with nos. During full throttle shifts, minimum engine speed is there, vehicle speed is also there and throttle opening is 100 %. The car will be bouncing of shiftlimiter(fuel cut not ignition) and nos will still keep on spraying because it meets the all the required conditions. nitrous and car bouncing of fuel cut is not a good idea especially on a rich running engine where there still might be some unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber along with a bunch of nitrous. So maybe adding max engine rpm to shut it off would be beneficial option in my opinion.
Also i just downloaded 3.3 hondalogger and it does not have input and output arming status buttons on the dash.
thanks
</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow, i was thinking about a few of your points but man you nailed everything you would need practically.
Hey guys, keep up the good work. I was really pleased to see the Nitrous option. Here are a few suggestions which would not require a lot of re-programming and could be really beneficial to users.
You have a provision for dry set up but not for wet. you have two outputs for nitrous solenoids acc(a15) pcs(a20). From what i see you can only use one at a time. What if you had an option on the top for wet kit and if you put a checkmark on it, then you can use one output for nitrous solenoid and one for fuel solenoid. This would enable guys to run big shots without using the injectors and just relying on jetting. For instance on a 100 shot people will have to upgrade injectors but if done this way hondata is only functioning as a trigger for both solenoids.
This way people with wet kits do not have to be worried about cost of bigger injectors, idle problems with bigger injectors, tuning time to get the fuel parameters right for nitrous.
Also i like the idea of having parameters/conditions for nitrous to be activated.
Minimun engine speed, throttle opening, minimum vehicle speed are well thought of. Another parameter, which i think could be added and used is max engine speed for nitrous. I can give you 3 examples where it can help and save motors
People using nitrous to spool turbos want nitrous to kick in at lets say 3000 rpm but get full spool at 5500-6000 rpm there is no way for them to shut it except manually.
Another example is revlimit with nitrous. It is very concerning, tuners can always set nos to shut of 200 rpms before revlimit. for instance rev limit is 8500 rpm but tuner can cut of nitrous at max engine speed of 8300. This could prevent a few catastrophies.
Think about full throttle shifting with nos. During full throttle shifts, minimum engine speed is there, vehicle speed is also there and throttle opening is 100 %. The car will be bouncing of shiftlimiter(fuel cut not ignition) and nos will still keep on spraying because it meets the all the required conditions. nitrous and car bouncing of fuel cut is not a good idea especially on a rich running engine where there still might be some unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber along with a bunch of nitrous. So maybe adding max engine rpm to shut it off would be beneficial option in my opinion.
Also i just downloaded 3.3 hondalogger and it does not have input and output arming status buttons on the dash.
thanks
</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow, i was thinking about a few of your points but man you nailed everything you would need practically.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (RyanCivic2000)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RyanCivic2000 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is cool. Does anyone know if it will work with the Zex box? This is just what I need.</TD></TR></TABLE>
From what I can tell it just grounds an existing ECU pin. So if the Zex can be armed that way you should be fine. At very most you may need to setup a relay to feed the arming mechanism whatever voltage it is looking for.
From what I can tell it just grounds an existing ECU pin. So if the Zex can be armed that way you should be fine. At very most you may need to setup a relay to feed the arming mechanism whatever voltage it is looking for.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (93LSivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93LSivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...and all the small things like the hesitation you would always get in vacuum and the little things that would work when they wanted to.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The Hondata is a factory ECU, if your car isnt running right its because its not tuned right.
This specific issue of hesitation as you go in and out of vacuum is a fueling issue. Its especially noticable when you upgrade to a 3bar map and loose some low-end resolution. But it easily solved by a half competent tuner.
I had one of the first AEMs and used it for over a year. If you think the AEM is "bigger and better things" I have some bad news for you.
I am just a Hondata user and I get so many questions from people that are just too lazy to try to work things out themselves (not saying this is you). I can only imagine the call Hondata get.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The Hondata is a factory ECU, if your car isnt running right its because its not tuned right.
This specific issue of hesitation as you go in and out of vacuum is a fueling issue. Its especially noticable when you upgrade to a 3bar map and loose some low-end resolution. But it easily solved by a half competent tuner.
I had one of the first AEMs and used it for over a year. If you think the AEM is "bigger and better things" I have some bad news for you.
I am just a Hondata user and I get so many questions from people that are just too lazy to try to work things out themselves (not saying this is you). I can only imagine the call Hondata get.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (HIPEmotorsports)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HIPEmotorsports »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for the guys at hondata if you read this forum before you read yours
Hey guys,
keep up the good work. I was really pleased to see the Nitrous option. Here are a few suggestions which would not require a lot of re-programming and could be really beneficial to users.
You have a provision for dry set up but not for wet. you have two outputs for nitrous solenoids acc(a15) pcs(a20). From what i see you can only use one at a time. What if you had an option on the top for wet kit and if you put a checkmark on it, then you can use one output for nitrous solenoid and one for fuel solenoid. This would enable guys to run big shots without using the injectors and just relying on jetting. For instance on a 100 shot people will have to upgrade injectors but if done this way hondata is only functioning as a trigger for both solenoids.
This way people with wet kits do not have to be worried about cost of bigger injectors, idle problems with bigger injectors, tuning time to get the fuel parameters right for nitrous.
Also i like the idea of having parameters/conditions for nitrous to be activated.
Minimun engine speed, throttle opening, minimum vehicle speed are well thought of. Another parameter, which i think could be added and used is max engine speed for nitrous. I can give you 3 examples where it can help and save motors
People using nitrous to spool turbos want nitrous to kick in at lets say 3000 rpm but get full spool at 5500-6000 rpm there is no way for them to shut it except manually.
Another example is revlimit with nitrous. It is very concerning, tuners can always set nos to shut of 200 rpms before revlimit. for instance rev limit is 8500 rpm but tuner can cut of nitrous at max engine speed of 8300. This could prevent a few catastrophies.
Think about full throttle shifting with nos. During full throttle shifts, minimum engine speed is there, vehicle speed is also there and throttle opening is 100 %. The car will be bouncing of shiftlimiter(fuel cut not ignition) and nos will still keep on spraying because it meets the all the required conditions. nitrous and car bouncing of fuel cut is not a good idea especially on a rich running engine where there still might be some unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber along with a bunch of nitrous. So maybe adding max engine rpm to shut it off would be beneficial option in my opinion.
Also i just downloaded 3.3 hondalogger and it does not have input and output arming status buttons on the dash.
thanks
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well as always i love the support that hondata has offered. I was once in a bind about 2 years ago tuning a customers car and it was a saturday. I wrote Doug an email and he called me from his house to help me figure a bug out. He did not have to but he did he could have just emailed it to me but he made a half an hour phone call to Canada to help me. As always if you have an intelligent question they will always respond in time. I just put the previous post up ysterday and here is their response
Here is is what Hondata said.
Thanks for the feedback.
For a wet setup set the fuel enrichment value to zero and run both solenoids from the single Nitrous output. (I'm assuming you want both to come on at the same time).
Maximum rpm is a good idea and will be in the next release.
In HondaLogger 3.3 the Nitrous Arm and Nitrous On indicators are in the sensor list only.
_________________
Hondata
Hey guys,
keep up the good work. I was really pleased to see the Nitrous option. Here are a few suggestions which would not require a lot of re-programming and could be really beneficial to users.
You have a provision for dry set up but not for wet. you have two outputs for nitrous solenoids acc(a15) pcs(a20). From what i see you can only use one at a time. What if you had an option on the top for wet kit and if you put a checkmark on it, then you can use one output for nitrous solenoid and one for fuel solenoid. This would enable guys to run big shots without using the injectors and just relying on jetting. For instance on a 100 shot people will have to upgrade injectors but if done this way hondata is only functioning as a trigger for both solenoids.
This way people with wet kits do not have to be worried about cost of bigger injectors, idle problems with bigger injectors, tuning time to get the fuel parameters right for nitrous.
Also i like the idea of having parameters/conditions for nitrous to be activated.
Minimun engine speed, throttle opening, minimum vehicle speed are well thought of. Another parameter, which i think could be added and used is max engine speed for nitrous. I can give you 3 examples where it can help and save motors
People using nitrous to spool turbos want nitrous to kick in at lets say 3000 rpm but get full spool at 5500-6000 rpm there is no way for them to shut it except manually.
Another example is revlimit with nitrous. It is very concerning, tuners can always set nos to shut of 200 rpms before revlimit. for instance rev limit is 8500 rpm but tuner can cut of nitrous at max engine speed of 8300. This could prevent a few catastrophies.
Think about full throttle shifting with nos. During full throttle shifts, minimum engine speed is there, vehicle speed is also there and throttle opening is 100 %. The car will be bouncing of shiftlimiter(fuel cut not ignition) and nos will still keep on spraying because it meets the all the required conditions. nitrous and car bouncing of fuel cut is not a good idea especially on a rich running engine where there still might be some unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber along with a bunch of nitrous. So maybe adding max engine rpm to shut it off would be beneficial option in my opinion.
Also i just downloaded 3.3 hondalogger and it does not have input and output arming status buttons on the dash.
thanks
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well as always i love the support that hondata has offered. I was once in a bind about 2 years ago tuning a customers car and it was a saturday. I wrote Doug an email and he called me from his house to help me figure a bug out. He did not have to but he did he could have just emailed it to me but he made a half an hour phone call to Canada to help me. As always if you have an intelligent question they will always respond in time. I just put the previous post up ysterday and here is their response
Here is is what Hondata said.
Thanks for the feedback.
For a wet setup set the fuel enrichment value to zero and run both solenoids from the single Nitrous output. (I'm assuming you want both to come on at the same time).
Maximum rpm is a good idea and will be in the next release.
In HondaLogger 3.3 the Nitrous Arm and Nitrous On indicators are in the sensor list only.
_________________
Hondata
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,140
Likes: 0
From: nj
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (93LSivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93LSivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I was sick of the crap you had to go through with the way you use it...and all the small things like the hesitation you would always get in vacuum and the little things that would work when they wanted to.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The hesitation that you get when the car goes to vacum isn't hondata itself it's the tuning job. There could be a bunch of things that could be causing that problem. But it's not the hondata system it's the tuning job that was put on that map. If you tuned it yourself please don't take any offense to my comments because it wasn't meant to criticize you in any way.
There might be a few glitchs here and there but they all disapear when you know what you doing.
This whole thing reminds of the thing with GE.
"I got a flat tire and it's GE's fault."
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The hesitation that you get when the car goes to vacum isn't hondata itself it's the tuning job. There could be a bunch of things that could be causing that problem. But it's not the hondata system it's the tuning job that was put on that map. If you tuned it yourself please don't take any offense to my comments because it wasn't meant to criticize you in any way.
There might be a few glitchs here and there but they all disapear when you know what you doing.
This whole thing reminds of the thing with GE.
"I got a flat tire and it's GE's fault."
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,608
Likes: 1
From: All around, De/Pa
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (ekb18c)
Im not going to argue the fact that hondata is good, or is ****. Im just speaking my mind that I feel AEM is money better spent. I have maybe 1/3 the time into tuning the EMS then I had the hondata and the car is driving way better. Plus the tuning issues I had was supposedly per Doug a honda ecu problem (P75) or something to that effect.
Also I got fed up whith the company as a whole when they went to the S series products. Basically told every "stageX" user your fucked and you will need to upgrade to the Sxxx to get any kind of help.
Also, it sounds like the guys who sell/install/tune hondata are the ones who actually get support.......wonder why ---please keep using our products...Doug
I dont want a flame this and flame that war. Im just a nobody behind my computer who like to share his comments (good or bad) with the rest of the h-t community. I stand behind the AEM and you guys stand behind your hondata.
I do give a for another feature. But eventually the system is still going to be a limited "standalone" cause is still using the factory ecu.
Also I got fed up whith the company as a whole when they went to the S series products. Basically told every "stageX" user your fucked and you will need to upgrade to the Sxxx to get any kind of help.
Also, it sounds like the guys who sell/install/tune hondata are the ones who actually get support.......wonder why ---please keep using our products...Doug
I dont want a flame this and flame that war. Im just a nobody behind my computer who like to share his comments (good or bad) with the rest of the h-t community. I stand behind the AEM and you guys stand behind your hondata.
I do give a
for another feature. But eventually the system is still going to be a limited "standalone" cause is still using the factory ecu.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,763
Likes: 2
From: Dark Aether
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (93LSivic)
I'm just a lowly peon joe-mechanic as well as most of my other friends and the support from Hondata is and continues to be excellent. I'm using a stage 4 system. Sorry to hear that you didn't get good support.
However, you continually bash the system and support for the system yet you've admitted that your problem was a tuning issue? Usually you make sense, man. This time you don't and you're spreading bad information.
I ran my car with both a P28 and P75 ECU with no troubles at all after I tuned my part-throttle maps.
Sonny
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,411
Likes: 1
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (Sonny)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you wanted to run it with a wet kit, I'm sure you could just tell it to not add any more fuel, but still use it for timing retard and activation point.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,608
Likes: 1
From: All around, De/Pa
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (Sonny)
OK, OK Damnit.............my hondata didnt like me!!
Or maybe I couldnt just tune out the problems. Who knows! Just seems like I never had good luck with it except it did allow me to run 12's on a stock LS. And maybe Im ranting on it cause whenever I needed tech support it always seemed like noone was around. oh well.......sorry for bitchin about it, like someone said in another post "dont click on posts that don't interest you" --guess i'll take his advice.
Im not changing my avatar though
Or maybe I couldnt just tune out the problems. Who knows! Just seems like I never had good luck with it except it did allow me to run 12's on a stock LS. And maybe Im ranting on it cause whenever I needed tech support it always seemed like noone was around. oh well.......sorry for bitchin about it, like someone said in another post "dont click on posts that don't interest you" --guess i'll take his advice.
Im not changing my avatar though
Banned
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,702
Likes: 0
From: NOVA, America
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (93LSivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you start laughing uncontrollably, immediately switch the system off, stop the car and go to the nearest rave.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hondata is great I only wish the DSM world had something this good. On my old turbo honda my hondata system was the shiznit and made the car 10x more fun to drive
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hondata is great
I only wish the DSM world had something this good. On my old turbo honda my hondata system was the shiznit and made the car 10x more fun to drive
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,116
Likes: 2
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (ekb18c)
Gotta go and download the new version 3.3 of romeditor! I know there are more tricks, and features up hondata sleeves. Time will tell what they bring out. I think the next thing should be an integrated boost controller into the blue box with gear based control.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,116
Likes: 2
Re: (bonestock)
On a dry set-up each cylinder wont be getting the exact amount of nitrous. Its going to vary, so the power levels of each cylinder are going to vary. The air/fuel is going to vary in terms of the nitrous for each cylinder. Each time you inject, the ratios of what each cylinder is recieving in terms of nitrous is going to change, so you cannot tune around the lean conditions that will occur per cylinder. Direct port is the only to achieve consistent, tunable results.
New User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 0
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (93LSivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93LSivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im not going to argue the fact that hondata is good, or is ****. Im just speaking my mind that I feel AEM is money better spent. Im just a nobody behind my computer who like to share his comments (good or bad) with the rest of the h-t community.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well that's great and everything, but do you have to do it on EVERY STINKIN HONDATA THREAD? Sorry for the name calling, I retract and apologize for that, but your behavior in doing that was uncalled for, and I got fed up. Just one of those rare times in a rare mood, just the same your comments didn't contribute anything positive to the discussion, and it wasn't the first time it was totally out of place. This portion of the thread should now be dropped
Well that's great and everything, but do you have to do it on EVERY STINKIN HONDATA THREAD? Sorry for the name calling, I retract and apologize for that, but your behavior in doing that was uncalled for, and I got fed up. Just one of those rare times in a rare mood, just the same your comments didn't contribute anything positive to the discussion, and it wasn't the first time it was totally out of place. This portion of the thread should now be dropped
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,302
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (simple4012)
Thats pretty sweet that they introduced nitrous control! But boost control should have been first! lol
I bought one of the last new 3b's in my city and I was a little ticked when I read this! http://hondata.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=479
Thinking of selling the hondata now and buying an aem...
Even though I just paid almost full price for the 3b hondata wants 250 to upgrade to the s200 and then I have to buy all the other options again like the 2 step and boost!!!!! I was fuc*in pissed!!
I bought one of the last new 3b's in my city and I was a little ticked when I read this! http://hondata.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=479
Thinking of selling the hondata now and buying an aem...
Even though I just paid almost full price for the 3b hondata wants 250 to upgrade to the s200 and then I have to buy all the other options again like the 2 step and boost!!!!! I was fuc*in pissed!!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,037
Likes: 0
From: Dandridge, TN, USA
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (simple4012)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by simple4012 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i guess one could plumb the dry system into the manifold like a wet kit and just not install fuel lines.,..........hmmmmmmm</TD></TR></TABLE>
Easily acheved.
Easily acheved.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 1
From: Bay Area, Ca, United States
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (Jeff C)
Tunners...there was some discussion a WHILE back in regards to the hesitation under vacume- someone said that they changed to a diffrent base map
ex. switching from a p72 to p28 map. Can any tunners confirm this?
ex. switching from a p72 to p28 map. Can any tunners confirm this?
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,355
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From: Margaritaville
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (philo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by philo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
From what I can tell it just grounds an existing ECU pin. So if the Zex can be armed that way you should be fine. At very most you may need to setup a relay to feed the arming mechanism whatever voltage it is looking for.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can anyone confirm this for sure? Any tuners or someone from Hondata maybe? I just want to make sure. Thanks.
From what I can tell it just grounds an existing ECU pin. So if the Zex can be armed that way you should be fine. At very most you may need to setup a relay to feed the arming mechanism whatever voltage it is looking for.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can anyone confirm this for sure? Any tuners or someone from Hondata maybe? I just want to make sure. Thanks.
New User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 0
From: Tampa, FL, USA
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (Cramerox)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cramerox »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tunners...there was some discussion a WHILE back in regards to the hesitation under vacume- someone said that they changed to a diffrent base map
ex. switching from a p72 to p28 map. Can any tunners confirm this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
this problem was solved when the S series interface and romeditor 3.0 was released.
ex. switching from a p72 to p28 map. Can any tunners confirm this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
this problem was solved when the S series interface and romeditor 3.0 was released.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 1
From: Bay Area, Ca, United States
Re: Hondata has Nitrous Control (VaporTrail)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VaporTrail »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
this problem was solved when the S series interface and romeditor 3.0 was released.</TD></TR></TABLE>
But what about the older hondata users? is swapping out to a diffrent map the answer or is partial throtle tunning the answer?
this problem was solved when the S series interface and romeditor 3.0 was released.</TD></TR></TABLE>
But what about the older hondata users? is swapping out to a diffrent map the answer or is partial throtle tunning the answer?