Snailor Built

Its back together now. Ill post pictures, I had the Fluidampr, sheer the keyway on the crank, and began to back off. Then the pump wasnt spinning with the engine. Cracked the pump in half, bearings looked perfect, However I bought another set yesterday, new gsr crank, new oem typer pump and a ati damper.Ill be making passes tonight at the local drag strip.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

could be worse...


would get some reg oil run it for 30-40sec, drain & fill, repeat 3 times..... that's just me.
Good luck buddy

Charlie

peaceable

iTrader: (1)

Could be a he#!! of a lot worse! That's for sure. Good idea about the oil cleanse with all of the stress on it.

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

After reading what happend I will be putting a warning on my Tunerview for oil pressure.

NA James

If the fluidamper sits for a while they go bad.... my oil pump went on the dyno and luckily we caught it and switch the oil pump and went to a ati and everything has been fine

DDTECH

First off - Before you do anything you've read in this thread.

Don't just throw a Oil pump on the motor and go to town.. That's the dumbest Fucken thing to do. I just had this EXACT same situation happen to a buddy of mine's motor that I just tuned a few months back. There's a thread in the FI forum about the build and ****..

Anyway, When you take off your oil pump, Look at main bearing 1.. and the actual cap. More then likely when the oil pump did shatter, if it did, it took this out with it.. happens a lot.. We were gonna do the same very thing to my buddies motor then we decided to check it once over, glad we did.. it fucked up the entire cap almost..and the bearing was all chewed up. We determined it shattered because of insufficient vibration damping.. he had a N1 Pulley on there and at the time, he didn't build the motor, he was gonna change it when he got back from his deployment but during a hwy pull racing some 800whp car, the car shut off.. and no oil psi..

Please check ur first "1" main bearing and cap. if its good, you might have gotten away with murder, I would also go through, and retorque the caps, replace all main/rod bearings just to be said as Tepid did recommend.

bigG

iTrader: (6)

He did even put in a new crank, read his last post. Lol

jimbo slice

Why do the oil pumps fail? Just had the same issue happen on a car last night. Except the driver didn't catch it in time. Knock knock, who's there?

This engine had mains set to .0020 and rods at .0018 using Clevite's

bigG

iTrader: (6)

Are you guys using the oil pump dowel pins on line bored blocks?

jimbo slice

The block I'm talking about never had the main honed. No need for offset dowels. And yes I use the factory dowels to align the oil pump.

This engine made 608@ 27psi with a 9,500 redline. Stock balancer to blame?

Tony the Tiger

Yup, I am still on the same Dart block right now, and also the same oil pump/TODA gear as well

Snailor Built

Sorry been busy, the bottom end continues to look amazing to this day. I am putting the blame on the Fluidampr, I bought it from a friend, He admit to buying it brand new from Full-Race about two and a half years ago and sat it on the shelf in his shop. I installed it, then turned around two days later and had it destroy an oil pump, Endyne race modded oem ITR pump, and of course the damper. I then bought a new ITR pump, factory, and installed my factory crank pully on it. Took it the track, first pass of the night (13.55 only wot in first then cruising) and it began to knock. I thought it was a rod bearing. Went home took the pan off and everything still continues to look brand new. At this point its winter, track closes in one week, so I decided to take the coupe down for winter. As I am taking it apart, the flywheel bolts all backed out of the twin disk. DESTROYED the crank. I loctite, and torqued the flywheel bolts and again am assuming the damper was the culprit. Just been a long couple weeks. However car is back together; new crank, bearings, oil pump, threw my cc stage 5 on it for the track, installed my transmission cuff, and updated my tune and will be making passes friday night.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

sounds good pal.

Props for not giving up & hammering through all the kinks of the setup.

I was hoping to turn up the boost and hit the track 1 more time to see if i can get low 11 but ain't gonna happen, there's already light snow on the ground.

Charlie

ballistic1350

iTrader: (7)

wow I saw you had it up for sale too.. sticking with it or giving in?

0Fluidampr-Tech

Hi!

My name is Ivan and I work for Fluidampr.

I wanted to clarify a false statement I just read. Fluidampr does not go bad over time or if the Fluidampr "sits for a while". This is absolutely a false statement. It is unfortunate for a manufacturer when statements are made with no evidence to support the statement. As a matter of FACT I had a NHRA champion contact me a couple weeks ago as he had an engine in storage since 1985 where the Fluidampr had not run but sat since. Upon evaluation of the damper it functioned as the day we sold it. We have test equipment that measures how well the damper is functioning. This equipment showed very minimal wear to the damper. The damper was returned and will be put back to use.

I do feel bad for this situation and have forwarded the thread to our engineering department to determine if the damper could have played any role in the failure. 30 lb EM1 is the only reason you are putting the blame on Fluidampr is that a previous post said they cannot sit?

I would like to look at other possibilities... what were your running prior to the Fluidampr?

We did an article with Moto IQ in which they wanted to swap a lightweight pulley with a Fluidampr. In the article they state that they had no idea but when they went to install the Fluidampr the oil pump gear was actually cracked and headed for failure. If they had not looked and just installed the Fluidampr a similar situation would have occurred.

I will be sure to post our thoughts after reviewing with engineering.

Tippyman

The internet (especially Honda-Tech) is rampant with statements like "Fluidyne is for V8's that only turn 6k rpm, ATI is for imports that rev out." I would like to see an actual, factual comparison with legitimate testing equipment instead of internet shenanigans.

I would be willing to bet the fact that all the flywheel bolts were loose was much more detrimental to the oil pump than the pulley in this case.

Tippyman

Threads like this: https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/endyn-fluidampr-vs-ati-race-damper-2891917/ make me think it's possible, but is it possible to test the pulley now that its damaged? To defend your company, I think it should be tested. Is it the loose flywheel messing up the damper or is the damper loosening the flywheel?

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

There has been a comparison between fluidamper and ati. The fluidamper is consistant throught the powerband on absorbing harmonics, the ATI does less of a job at lower RPM but increases with rpm and surpases the capabilities of the fluidamper. If i remember correctly they're about the same just before 5250 and after that the ATI increases its capabilities. I wish i could find the comparison and if I do it will be reposted on here.

This doesnt in ANY way reflect my feelings on one or the other damper or imply that one is better than the other just regurgitating something I read years back

tepid1

That test was here: http://www.laskeyracing.com/shop/harmonics.htm

Snailor Built

A) my flywheel bolts were installed with a snap on (legit) torque wrench and dialed in at the proper settings, also used loctite. The car had idled a few times with the factory pully on it, a friend went to the dyno and because of not using a proper damper had issues. I then freaked out and sourced a brand new one from a friend. Installed the night before the dyno, Noticing the pully was off a bit on the timing mark, we thought maybe it was a issue from fluidampr. Anyways here are some pictures. You can maybe tell me what went wrong. I never sat here and blatantly blamed it on the pully, that was just my guess and Ive heard from NUMEROUS SOURCES that they are to be stored a particular way.

Here are some pics.

Tippyman

That second to last pic looks like the damper bolt was loose. Whenever I see a keyway being wallowed out like that at work its due to the crank pulley wobbling around.

0Fluidampr-Tech

It may be possible to test the unit. I encourage the person with the damper in question to contact me personally at ivan.snyder@fluidampr.com and we can issue a RMA to get the damper back and perform an analysis.

In regard to the comparison, I believe you are referring to the one on ATI's website which is skewed and not accurate. First this ATI testing was done on a domestic V8 SB Chevy, which is completely different than a Honda engine. Orders at which the greatest torsional vibrations occur can change depending on the mass elastics of a particular engine. This ATI chart leads readers to believe that worse vibrations occur above 7000 rpm's. This is not completely accurate. Again, depending on the mass elastics, but generally the worst orders of vibration occur between 4000 and 7000 rpm's on a SBC with or without any damper. Also, different diameter dampers can skew these results. You must have the proper amount of inertia mass to control torsional twist. It is often a give and take. A lighter unit is less weight and can spin faster. A heavier damper will do a better job absorbing torsional twist. I believe ATI makes the same statement on their website and in their catalog.

We have done many tests recently including a S2000 project with a company Sure Motorsports in which they were using our competitors performance O-ring and wanted to test Fluidampr dampers. Torsional testing proved to be greatly in Fluidampr's favor including less degree peak to peak crankshaft twist (which causes torsional vibration) and higher H.P. and Torque numbers. Using the same engine, same dyno under the same conditions in the same day Fluidampr recorded a peak H.P. of 340.9 and the competitor recorded 329.2 peak H.P. The H.P. gains with Fluidampr is due to a greater reduction in crankshaft twist, hence, less vibration robbing the engine of power.

If you would like to contact me at my email ivan.snyder@fluidampr.com I am more than glad to share the dyno results with you.

And I am not here to put down a competitor's product, but simply to provide the facts as I know them.

Both dampers are far better than any lightweight pulley and any other product on the market. I just happen to honestly believe I work for the best damper company on the market and have FACTS to back up my statements. I have personally worked with our engineering team traveling to different engine builder facilities throughout the country performing torsional vibration analysis. Time and time again these engine builders eyes light up when they see the H.P. and torque gains. It is not often thought of in regard to a damper, let alone a heavier damper. Test after test lightweight pulley vs. rubber damper vs. Fluidampr and Fluidampr puts up the best numbers. I challenge you to put Fluidampr to the test!

0Fluidampr-Tech

30lb... no problem. I was not pointing at you personally. I just cannot tell you how many times I have heard that they must be stored a certain way, or the fluid goes bad, or it hardens over time or in the cold weather. All false. We believe they are put out there by competitors and has snowballed over the years. There is even a crank manufacturer out there who likes to blame Fluidampr for his cheap crankshafts breaking. The fact is viscous damper technology has been around since before the small block chevy was invented which Fluidampr's parent company Vibratech TVD invented in 1946 for diesel engines. They are still used at an OEM level on over 90% of heavy duty diesel engines. They can be found in gas cars such as Audi, Lamborghini, Mclaren, Ford GT40, and Dodge Cummins 6.7 diesel engine, these all use viscous dampers at the OEM level. The only reason all OEMs do not use them is because of cost. They get away with a cheap rubber unit which may hold up on a daily driver, although these have been known to fail as well.

In any case I will do as promised and review these images with engineering and report back tomorrow with our findings or thoughts.

Thank you for the open mind and allowing us to look into this.

Snailor Built

Torqued to spec, Just like the magical flywheel bolts.....

Snailor Built

No problems, If it helps find the culprit of this issue then I am certainly open to sharing pictures and information as needed. I just want to know what caused this. I have emailed you from my work email as well.