B18EG6

Setup:

<FONT COLOR="red">edit - files at bottom</FONT>

- hondata s300 p72
- OBD1 GSR
- NEW RC750, fuel pressure confirmed on rail and on Aeromotive Reg. I see 12v on yel/blk wire, and I confirmed they work by quickly applying 12v across the pins.
- NEW distributor, OEM ignition, checked for spark and saw spark.
- NEW starter
- NEW BKR7E's gapped to 0.30
- ALL grounds are in contact with bare metal. Used 4ga wire for starter feed, alternator, tranny ground, and cylinder head ground. Thermostat ground is clean and new bolt.
Tuning with Jeff in 3 weeks I do not want to postpone

I know my ECU works, I uploaded a basemap for an OEM gsr and tried it on my buddies car - fired right up.

After cranking for ~5-8 seconds, the CEL begins to come on and the starter hiccups and stops cranking for a second, then tries once more before I flat out give up.

I know NOTHING about hondata unfortunately. I was however able to note that it said 'on-line' on the bottom, and I recorded a datalog of the motor while cranking. I pulled the plugs immediately afterwards and was not able to smell fuel.

I have a motorola 2.5bar MAP but I was using the OEM MAP for troubleshooting, and I changed the setting within hondata.

I have a PLX M300 wideband, but the input is not hooked up to the ECU yet. It is also at the end of the DP, and I have no exhaust.. so it just reads AIR.

I have a screenshot of the datalog on my buddies GSR, and I have a .csv file of the datalog on my car

Please help! I need to know some more methods of troubleshooting, wires ot probe, signals to look for, grounds to check.. anything. Here is the list of continuity checks I have done





<u>Connector A</u>
1 continuity
2 continuity
3 continuity
4 continuity
5 continuity
6 ... 20 Unchecked
21 continuity to yel/grn on distributor
22 NO PIN
23 grounded
24 grounded
25 <FONT COLOR="blue">Does this have continuity to connector B, pin1?</FONT>
26 grounded

<u>Connector B</u>
1 <FONT COLOR="blue">Does this have continuity to connector A, pin25?</FONT>
2 was NOT grounded, distributor signal shielding. Connected to ground
3 ... 10 Unchecked
11 continuity
12 continuity
13 continuity
14 continuity
15 continuity
16 continuity

<u>Connector D</u>
1 .. 10 Unchecked
11 continuity to TPS middle red/blk pin, but pink/blk wire on ECM
12 .. 16 Unchecked
17 Unchecked, but my notes show the MAP colors on the ECM side as:
grn/blue, pink/wht, yel/grn
18 Unchecked
19 Same issue with MAP colors
20 continuity
21 <FONT COLOR="blue">need to ground?</FONT>
22 <FONT COLOR="blue">need to ground? On my harness, this pin has continuity to all the grn/blue +5v sensor supplies... IAT, TPS, etc</FONT>

Thank you in advance

Seb

EDIT-
Here is the screenshot while running on my friends GSR



Here is my Datalogged CSV file
http://sebastianstewart.net/cranking2.csv

Here is my calibration file (some settings might be changed, I was fooling around with it)
http://sebastianstewart.net/Seb.skl


Modified by B18EG6 at 12:11 PM 6/30/2007


Modified by B18EG6 at 1:02 PM 6/30/2007


Modified by B18EG6 at 2:31 PM 6/30/2007

B18EG6

<FONT COLOR="green">I just tried OEM GSR injectors, and an OEM GSR basemap. No luck, did not start and no smell of fuel on the plugs. I datalogged this one, the INJ window looked a little different. </FONT>

Here is a crappy graph of the INJ value throughout cranking.



And here is the .csv datalog file I made for the most recent attempt with an OEM basemap, and OEM injectors.

http://sebastianstewart.net/cr...s.csv

Thanks!

ladysman

what car and engine combo is this?

B18EG6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Setup:

- hondata s300 p72
- OBD1 GSR
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Also, 95 Civic hatch chassis

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Also, 95 Civic hatch chassis </TD></TR></TABLE>

I should have just said Car which is really what we needed to now.

I sent you a PM back but what does the map voltage read in Hondata with the key on?

B18EG6

MAP voltage reads 0.0 with key on.

I can upload a screenshot of whatever you want if you lemme know what ya need

edit - MAP 'value' reads 0.0 but it looks like this is KPa. How do I see voltage?


Modified by B18EG6 at 5:42 PM 6/30/2007

B18EG6

I'm runnin out of ideas here

I sat and traced through wiring diagrams for an hour and did continuity checks on so many things. ELD, Alternator, distributor, injectors...

switched grounds around, cleaned grounds.... for hte last 5 days this car has consumed me!

The car will crank for 5s and then emit a loud click from the starter, and try cranking again. the car doesn't even try to turn over.

ANY advice would be appreciated, even repeat advice. Please let me know any ideas anyone has!

Thanks

Seb

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm runnin out of ideas here

I sat and traced through wiring diagrams for an hour and did continuity checks on so many things. ELD, Alternator, distributor, injectors...

switched grounds around, cleaned grounds.... for hte last 5 days this car has consumed me!

The car will crank for 5s and then emit a loud click from the starter, and try cranking again. the car doesn't even try to turn over.

ANY advice would be appreciated, even repeat advice. Please let me know any ideas anyone has!

Thanks

Seb</TD></TR></TABLE>

First off, When you crank it pull the plugs, are they wet?
Second, you are sure the TPS and MAP plugs aren't switched?
Third, go to options&gt;Sensors and change the Map value to mbar. Then what does it read with the key on?
Fourth, triple check you are getting spark.
Fifth, I will think of later. Gotta feed my kids.

As far as the S300, I don't know that you can display voltage with it in the sensors. Someone else may know as I don't use the S300.

B18EG6

Ladysman-
Its a bit difficult to smell cause I used anti seize on the plug threads, but they are not wet and do not smell like fuel at all.

I do not believe the MAP and TPS are switched because the TPS changes when I move the throttle. Also, the two red and green LEDs are flashing fast from within the ECU on the hondata board.

After changing the MAP value to mbar, it reads 0 with the key on. I tried introducing some vacuum/pressure into the line and observed no change from within the datalog. I stopped/started the datalog while I was doing this because I didnt know if I needed to refresh it. Would this really make my car NOT start?

Will check for spark in one second when I have another helping hand... I will also record a video of the hiccup the motor does when trying to start.

If you can, please download my excel file from my most recent attempt to start the car:

http://sebastianstewart.net/cr...s.csv

Go feed yer kids

Thanks for the help, and I look forward to receiving more advice !!!

Seb

EDIT - here is a screenshot during me just trying to crank it over

monty Si-R

try hondata.com

monty Si-R

oh do you have a OEM thermostat ? or aftermarket

B18EG6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by monty Si-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">try hondata.com
</TD></TR></TABLE>

step ahead of ya
http://www.hondata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6556

I have an OEM thermostat, which coincidentally I tested and it opens at the correct temperature. Why do you ask?

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ladysman-
Its a bit difficult to smell cause I used anti seize on the plug threads, but they are not wet and do not smell like fuel at all.

I do not believe the MAP and TPS are switched because the TPS changes when I move the throttle. Also, the two red and green LEDs are flashing fast from within the ECU on the hondata board.

After changing the MAP value to mbar, it reads 0 with the key on. I tried introducing some vacuum/pressure into the line and observed no change from within the datalog. I stopped/started the datalog while I was doing this because I didnt know if I needed to refresh it. Would this really make my car NOT start?

Will check for spark in one second when I have another helping hand... I will also record a video of the hiccup the motor does when trying to start.

If you can, please download my excel file from my most recent attempt to start the car:

http://sebastianstewart.net/cr...s.csv

Go feed yer kids

Thanks for the help, and I look forward to receiving more advice !!!

Seb

EDIT - here is a screenshot during me just trying to crank it over

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm pretty sure with the key on, it should have a value other than zero depending on how you have the software setup. Yours is setup correctly so it should read something.

Yes, it could make it not start or not run worth a damn (more likely).
Did you check for spark? Injectors are firing? If you have cranked it over a bunch, those plugs would be wet and you could easily smell the gas in the chamber through the spark plug hole.

B18EG6

I haven't checked for spark with the new distributor because I was told you can damage the ignitor if you hold the plug close to the head and check for spark that way. I intend on getting a spark plug tester tonight on the way home from work (basically just a test light I think)

I do not think my injectors are firing. I cranked the motor multiple times for at least 5s each time and didnt smell fuel at all. I will leave one of the plugs out and crank it.

I am bringing home an oscilloscope from work tonight to look at what the injector plugs have on them while cranking. Should I jump the two injector pins with a 12ohm resistor and check for voltage drop across the resistor? Rather, if I DONT use the resistor, will the 'scope's input impedance cause any troubles for the ECM? I believe Zin is 50ohms.

Where can I find out what the MAP value should be with the key on, and what other values can I change to re-assess the MAP reading? Here are the colors on my MAP plug

grn/wht
wht/yel
yel/wht

Thanks again for the help!

Seb


Modified by B18EG6 at 7:28 PM 7/2/2007

B18EG6

Battery voltage drops to ~9v at the starter while cranking. Also, a 800ohm resistance to ground was noted WITHOUT the battery int he car.

I was able to look at the injector signals tonight with an oscilloscope, but I am unsure if I need to use a 12ohm load across the injector terminal. I used the 1M input impedance of the oscilloscope to look at the signals.

I was not able to see any recognizable pulse though... just a drop in voltage while cranking. Below are some screenshots...

Here, I set the measurement feature to try and catch the pulse width, but it was just a drop in voltage



Here is an odd transient I saw


Here is a picture of the overall drop in voltage and recovery


AND here is my setup. Did not use any multiplying probes, just normal 50ohm BNC cable with breakouts to clippys


<FONT COLOR="blue">ANY help would be appreciated... Am I supposed to be able to catch the injector pulses? Should I add a 12ohm resistor to measure the drop across? Should I take the signals right off of the ECM connector??</FONT>

-Seb

Turbogixxer

Few things

You said you get a CEL after cranking for a bit, you check the code?

Chiovnidca

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
After cranking for ~5-8 seconds, the CEL begins to come on

</TD></TR></TABLE>
Begins to come on??? Does it come on all the way or does it glow dimly? Are there any stored trouble codes?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18EG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
and the starter hiccups and stops cranking for a second, then tries once more before I flat out give up.

</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is it a backfire?

Is the engine in good mechanical condition? Cams in time? Have you done a compression test?

DaveF

wow....


try checking pin A7 at the ecu, to see if it turns on when you turn the key on.

other than that....

you might want to look at this thread.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2028652

Turbo-charged

the way you say it stops cranking all the sudden makes it sound like the timing is off.


is the main relay operating correctly? do you hear the fuel pump turning on? is the ecu properly socketed?

B18EG6

Thank you for the replies!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbogixxer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Few things

You said you get a CEL after cranking for a bit, you check the code?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I do not have any codes on the ECU. I got a heated o2 sensor code once but I disabled that I do not have my OEM O2 sensor plugged in, please tell me this isnt doing it

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chiovnidca &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Begins to come on??? Does it come on all the way or does it glow dimly? Are there any stored trouble codes?


Is it a backfire?

Is the engine in good mechanical condition? Cams in time? Have you done a compression test?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The CEL only becomes lit when the starter hiccups, and isnt lit after I stp cranking. I get the feeling its coming on in the same fashion it does when you first turn the key to IGN. It doesnt happen always, but I can take a video of once occurance.

The motor is freshly built, and the cams are in sync with the crank... Everyone is at TDC together.

I have not done a compression test, is that safe to do on a fresh motor? I did note it was a bit difficult to turn over by hand, so I am hopnig for good numbers Its an 81.5mm 9:1 CP piston + eagle rod combo

Just to rule this one out... here is my spark plug wire order, and injector colors

B18EG6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow....


try checking pin A7 at the ecu, to see if it turns on when you turn the key on.

other than that....

you might want to look at this thread.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2028652</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll check A7 again

The fuel pump primes, and I hear it on (and see the fuel pressure jump a bit when cranking)

Turbo-charged

firing order is correct, and no....the 02 sensor will not cause this.


this might sound stupid, but ive seen weirder stuff happen.....have you tried just adding fuel to the map? ive noticed the re4 and 300 stuff require a lot more fuel than the older re3 stuff. especially on bigger injectors. with a 750 even with the most basic base map the car should still start up..but again ive seen weirder stuff happen lol (btw i havnt looked at your maps at all)

ii think i read above wrong.....the computer worked in your friends car....your car wont start with ANY computer in your car?


what all was done before the car wouldnt start? r&r engine / build/ turbo install.....did you do any major wiring like make your own engine harness or anything?

when you say the engine was hard to turn over by hand......was that with or with out spark plugs.

does the car have aftermarket cam gears? the way its coming to a stop while cranking it sure makes it sound like the timing is off (i have seen aftermarket cam gears that are indexed incorrectly--ive also seen people think they have some aftermarket gears lined up correctly at tdc, but come to find out they were using the wrong marks to line them up!) if that was the case i would think you would smell excessive fuel





Modified by Turbo-charged at 1:25 PM 7/3/2007

B18EG6

ECU is socketed correctly because the ECU works in a friends OEM GSR

As per dturbocivic's advice in the other thread:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">igp1 +igp2 (a25 +b1) go to pin 6 on relay
start sig (b9) go to pin 2 on relay
a7-flr1 go to pin 1 on relay
pg1 + pg 2(a23 + a24) go to pin 3 on relay, + thermoground 101

</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is great advice, I will hafta wait till after work to go check it I am runnin a little late this morning.

Another question - I tried switching around some of the grounds to see if it helped. If te ECM is expecting the thermostat ground, but it got chassis ground instead, would that caue troubles? Or rather, same for the main relay also.

Thanks again for the advice... I am finally beginning to feel I can solve this!!!

Seb

DaveF

it shouldnt matter, but try running a ground wire from the thermoground, straight to the NEG on the batt. maybe you have a bad ground.

edit... actually if that were the case, i belive the cel would be on, in about 3 sec of cranking.

B18EG6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it shouldnt matter, but try running a ground wire from the thermoground, straight to the NEG on the batt. maybe you have a bad ground.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeh that was one of the tests I did grounded the thermo housing, grounded the ECM to the chassis on the inside.

So whats up with the injector 'pulse'? how come in my hondata datalog I see the signal attempt to be sent, but all I have at the injectors is a voltage drop?