Erik_Pb_Foot

here is his setup...

b16a2 <--- thanks for correcting me slashDEVslashNULL
eagle crank
eagle rods
eagle 8.5:1 pistons
oem headgasket
stock head
arp head bolts
revhard t3/t4 kit with log mani
vortech fmu that came with kit
turbonetics deltagare wg that came with kit
vortech bov that came with kit
venom 550cc injectors
walbro 255 fuel pump
aem fpr on stock fuel rail
full exhaust
stock 99si computer
vafc

it's running like pure crap...

it was on the dyno but they never hooked up a boost gauge
a snap-on scanner was used to calculate the boost level via the obd2 port.

everything bolted on with everything set as it came out of the box the car ran great with a great a/f but only made like, 160whp-ish... somewhere in there anyway....

they turned the boost up and after playing around with it and trying to eliminate the massive amounts of detonation it made 280whp-ish at best. running horribly.... nasty horrible.

boost was turned back "down" and he's been babbying the car not boosting.

he has a CEL but i dunno what code yet.... it's been on since the motor was swapped in (same time as turbo install)

can anyone make some suggestions on what to do next? aside from the boost gauge obviously...

i'd like to help him get this settled....

-Erik



Modified by Erik_Pb_Foot at 3:10 PM 1/29/2004

baphomet

1. Sue those idiots
2. Get the car tuned

a2 btw

Forrest Gump 9

Damn, he spent all that money on the internals and can't afford to get a boost gauge?? Hopefully nothing major. I think his problem is the 550 injectors. I don't think the FMU can control that big of injectors. And why would he have both FMU and VFAC at the same time?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I agree..

1) Personally, compression is too low.. Probably idles like ***
2)Why an FMU & 550cc injectors? Back down the injector or trash the FMU and use the V-AFC to bandaid untill better management has been purchased.
3)V-AFC has a tendency to try and lean out the motor a lot when fuel is added based on the computer. Be careful, will all that fuel, even while detonating could seriously damage that motor.
4) Get away from that tuner, time for other options..

Erik_Pb_Foot

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PaintStripper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Damn, he spent all that money on the internals and can't afford to get a boost gauge?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

had a boost gauge... tuner never tapped it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheShodan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree..

1) Personally, compression is too low.. Probably idles like ***
2)Why an FMU & 550cc injectors? Back down the injector or trash the FMU and use the V-AFC to bandaid untill better management has been purchased.
3)V-AFC has a tendency to try and lean out the motor a lot when fuel is added based on the computer. Be careful, will all that fuel, even while detonating could seriously damage that motor.
4) Get away from that tuner, time for other options..</TD></TR></TABLE>

1-i would have thought 9 or 9.5:1 but tuner told him to get 8.5:1....
it idles just about like stock actually... suprisingly
2-fmu came with the revhard kit so he figured he should use it
550CC just b/c he told his tuner he wanted at least 300whp from his setup so he bought those to deliver the fuel
the vafc he was told he'd need...


what can he do with what he has?

i've never boosted a motor without a standalone so i dunno what the stock computer is capable of... is it capable of 15psi or 20psi or whatever it takes to make 300ish whp?

thanks guys

-Erik &lt;--- who agrees, tuner... BAD


Modified by Erik_Pb_Foot at 3:11 PM 1/29/2004

Forrest Gump 9

Should remove the FMU and just use the VAFC. Try to get a wideband on that thing and tune it.

Erik_Pb_Foot

ok, that's very feasbile.

it was on a dynojet with a wideband so that's very doable for a 2nd time.

one thing i don't understand, and please forgive my ignorance in the vafc world and stock computer world, but how will the computer give more fuel to make up for the boost?

with an fmu, as i understand it, it upps the fuel per psi of boost read from the vacuum line....

how will the stock computer and vafc do the same?

also, what's the max boost the stock computer will be able to handle before it pops the map sensor? i've got a missing link i got for free i would give him if it would help. suggestions?

-Erik

Nick7

At same duty cycle 550c will obviously give much more fuel than 240cc (more than double).. so that's how u get enuff fuel.
Ditch FMU since you got VAFC, this is reason why you couldn't tune it.... oh, just be shure not to have missing link in there aswell!

Erik_Pb_Foot

haha, ok, NO missing link... check

no fmu.... consider it done

now my last questions....
-can someone suggest a fuel pressure to start with when tuning?
-since pulls on the dyno are WOT i can see that the tune will be fine for when he is hard on the gas and into boost, but will the computer know to give less fuel when he isn't boosting?

ex. 6k rpm's on dyno @ wot in boost he's getting x amount of fuel
ok now he's on the highway at 6k rpms cruising (unrealistic but bear with me) will his engine still be getting that same massive amount of fuel therefore causing it to run rich?

i'm retarded about the stock computer and the vafc as you can tell i'm sure. sory for my ignorance

-Erik &lt;--- who's going to try to tune this without the "tuner" this time

GDM Z28

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Erik_Pb_Foot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha, ok, NO missing link... check

no fmu.... consider it done

now my last questions....
-can someone suggest a fuel pressure to start with when tuning?
-since pulls on the dyno are WOT i can see that the tune will be fine for when he is hard on the gas and into boost, but will the computer know to give less fuel when he isn't boosting?

ex. 6k rpm's on dyno @ wot in boost he's getting x amount of fuel
ok now he's on the highway at 6k rpms cruising (unrealistic but bear with me) will his engine still be getting that same massive amount of fuel therefore causing it to run rich?

i'm retarded about the stock computer and the vafc as you can tell i'm sure. sory for my ignorance

-Erik &lt;--- who's going to try to tune this without the "tuner" this time</TD></TR></TABLE>

no you wont be getting the same amount as fuel as you would when your WOT. With an AFC you can set how much fuel you want at high and low throttle. like you can make the car run lean untill...20% throttle then it switches to the "high" map and you can make the "high" map richer. Even though your at the same RPM, your not at the same throttle. Loose the FMU and hook the vafc up. you will be alot happier. and hook up the boost gauge.

Erik_Pb_Foot

ok, that makes sense.

so on the dyno we should tune @ WOT and then tune again for say... 20% throttle?

stupid question.... why would the kit include the fmu if it's pointless? not questioning anyone's intelligence b/c what you all are saying makes sense but would it be possible he'd be better off running the stock computer, the fmu, and no vafc?

-Erik &lt;---- trying to get a grasp on this whole thing and VERY glad i won't be dealing with this on my car

Erik_Pb_Foot

and lastly, for now, i've heard of people frying the map sensors... can anyone go into detail on this? is the map sensor good for X psi max? for example...

raene

You use either the FMU or the hack, not both. The FMU raises fuel pressure when it sees boost, and that's how the stock RevHard kit supplies the extra fuel for the turbo. The AFC hack, on the other hand, fools the ECU into thinking the MAP sensor output is lower than it actually is, so the ECU delivers much less fuel at idle - in fact, it lowers the idle fuel output so much that you can idle 440cc injectors, but at WOT and near the maximum boost, the AFC tells the computer that the MAP sensor is reading nearly 0psi (WOT on n/a engines). So the computer gives full injector pulsewidths on 440cc injectors, and that's how you get the extra fuel under boost. The AFC takes the MAP signal and scales it down, so that 10psi or whatever becomes 0psi to the ECU, and vacuum (normal driving, idling) becomes even more vacuum to the stock ECU. It squishes everything down. That's why you have to run huge negative percentages on the AFC - that's the MAP scaling, sort of.

The MAP sensor can read up to roughly 10psi maximum, and going over it shouldn't "fry" the ECU or the MAP - the MAP sensor will just stay static at 10psi voltage output. It can't read more than that.

Erik_Pb_Foot

awesome explanation, i have seen the light, haha

what is the verdict with his setup though? should he just run the stock computer and fmu and let the fmu do the work?

or is the fmu destined for eBay and the vafc should do the work? he's broke as could be and i'd imagine however we set it up is how it will stay until at least summer....

Joseph Davis

Erik, you are a stunna. I could fix that car in less than half an hour. If I could only figure out how a turbo system worked with V-TECH cellular technology, that is.

A 12:1 FMU with 550cc injectors will not work, the AFC is incapable of pulling enough fuel by it's inherent design, and even if it could drop MAP input to the ECU by more than 50% you'd be in your peak part throttle ignition advance... 40-42 degrees advance under boost, yay!

Remove FMU, dial distributor back about 3 degrees retarded from stock base timing, and run the AFC as per regular AFC hack settings posted all over HT. That will run it too rich, since the AFC hack is usually performed with 450cc injectors, but it will run; my intent is to have you tune the car from a safe starting point which is the ONLY starting point.

Make sure any missing link type thing preventing the AFC/ECU from seeing MAP signal input has been removed, and preferrably burned at the stake.

As far as MAP limitations, OBD1/2 MAP reads 10.65 psig at max voltage out of 4.5xx. I dislike OBD1/2 MAP sensors greatly, they blow every couple of months where the OBD0 sensors seem bulletproof, although they only read 9.25 psig.

Erik_Pb_Foot

like WHOA

We may not see eye-to-eye on some things but I've gotta give respect where respect is due.... You sure do know a lot about running stock computers with boost and the whole fmu vafc thing.

I guess it's time to give him a call and start telling him what I've learned on here. He's got a buddy that runs a dyno that will tune it for him which is why I was just going to go so I could bring this post nice and printed out for his non-computer-savvy self and we could do some wrenching.

OK, here's a question for you then... You mess with the chips a lot... If I told him to come to you with his car could you tune it better by burning him a "custom" chip than we could do with just the vafc? The only thing is it's OBD2 and I dunno crap about chipping other than people are always saying OBD1 chips....

-Erik &lt;--- this stunna is gonna have to drink a after reading that

Erik_Pb_Foot

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A 12:1 FMU </TD></TR></TABLE>

hes got a 1:1 does that matter?

dbang003

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Erik_Pb_Foot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hes got a 1:1 does that matter?</TD></TR></TABLE>


i'm not much of a turbo tuner, as i am running a similar setup, but a 1:1 fmu setup is not possible...maybe i'm wrong, i'm new to the turbo game...anyway, it doesn't matter...the fmu no mattter what ratio is the problem...

i am running a stock b18c1 and have a custom kit, fmic, v-afc II, missing link, rc 550cc injectors, 255 lph fuel pump, and also got a fmu with the kit i got...after hooking everything up the car was running way to rich and couldn't even get it to go down the road...i took out the fmu and now it is running a lot better...no i jsut have to figure out what hack settings to run with 550's i think u are pretty much at the limit of leaning out the fuel settings with the v-afc...at least for when ur not in boost...that's where my problems are...but i can only run the car at partial throttle cuz the wastegate has a 10 psi spring in it...i just got my 5.7 psi spring in so i will be able to figure out more, hopefully this weekend...too much snow right now...if anyone has any hack suggestions for 550's i'm the 2 of us would appreciate it...i just wanna be able to get the car to the dyno without any problems...

good luck with tuning the car, but definately lose the fmu...peaces

drew

Erik_Pb_Foot

i thought it was 1:1.... for every 1psi of boost it reads it adds 1 psi of fuel tressure.

thats what i was told neways...

Joseph Davis

OBD2 chipping doesn't happen; he'd require OBD1 conversion. From that point he can AFC tune pretty accurately from a generic chip, or I can actually tune the ECU program on the dyno - better yet, JDogg can do that for you in the Raleigh area.

I doubt he has a 1:1 FMU, you wouldn't hit enough boost for the FMU to start raising fuel pressure over stock. The stock FPR will increase fuel pressure 1 psi per psi of pressure in at the "vacuum" referrence port. Besides, you said originally it was the FMU that came stock with the kit.

And as for disagreeing with me... you're wrong, stunna, but I'm still buying you a beer if/when we meet.

Erik_Pb_Foot

maybe it is a 12:1, i dunno.

at 10psi the car was doing fine and running great the way it is set up.. it was when the boost was turned up it started having trouble.

he's going to be running 15-20 psi was the plan i think... i wish i had never gotten involved in this. he needs to just buy an aem ems and be happy.

he won't do the obd1 thingy cause of inspection. he's **** about that stuff for some reason... don't understand why but that's just him. if he had the ems he wouldn't pass though would he? he'd have to put the stock computer back in, right?

dbang003

not sure about how things r in nc, but in jersey u can pretty much kiss passing inspection "legally" goodbye if u put a turbo on ur car...i'm sure it can be done but it would be a hassle...

sounds like the car is runnin better than mine did with the fmu hooked up...i couldn't even get it to go throught he revs enough to start makin boost...

just keep buggin him to get a different computer setup...if he is plannin to run 15-20 psi u might as well do right and get a stand alone...

30psi Teg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Erik_Pb_Foot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hes got a 1:1 does that matter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The only 1:1 's I am aware of are the FPR's like Aeromotive the referance boost and raise fuel pressure on a 1:1 scale. This should be used with forced induction so that you get the correct flow from your injectors. because when you have boost presure pushing against the end of the injector nozzle it decreases flow so the regulator increases pressure to compensate for this.

Erik_Pb_Foot

i think the one that comes with the revhard kit is a vortech if i recall correctly and i'm pretty sure it is a 1:1 but not positive.

their was a guy in lexington with an 00 si running 14 psi off a hacked together kit with an fmu, vafc, missing link, and stock computer that was making like mid 300' whp.... with 550's....

the same guy did both cars but my buddy's internals were 1 point lower on the compression. the same guy that tuned the 300 something whp si built my buddy's engine and tried to tune it.

-Erik &lt;--- who thinks maybe the walbro fuel pump just can't keep up.... boost pump maybe?


Modified by Erik_Pb_Foot at 3:12 PM 1/29/2004

boosted_civic

Man oh man, if you listened to everything people tell you about turbo motors and such we'd be walkin' most of the time..

First things first.
I run an LS/VTEC motor that I built myself. The block is an A1 block with a first gem B16 head. My rods are Eagle H-beams, pistons are JE and are 9:1 CR. My crank is stock except for the knife edge and lightened job I had done to it. I run a type R oil pump @ 90 to 95 psi @full throttle. The head has been extrude honed and my valves are of the Ferrea flavor and are 1mm oversized. I run Crane turbo cams with adjustable gears. I run a stock Type R intake that has been port matched and sucks through a 68mm STR TB. I too run 550cc RC engineering spuirters. I also have a SAFC and a Vortech FMU. I also run a "True" Spoon ECU straight from JDM land. I run a T/4 frame T62 turbo hanging from a full race tubular SS manifold. 3" V-band clamped downpipe and 3" pipe right out to my HP Racing muffler. I run a TiAl 40mm wastegate, GReddy type 31v IC, 3" IC plumbing with a TiAl 50mm BOV. All held together with T-bolt clamps and Purosil couplers. I run 93 and 94 octane gas along with 116 octane race gas in my car. The setup your friend has is fine. The FMU and the VAFC is fine also. The stock ECU won't run 550's without running much too rich it's true. But that's where the VAFC comes in until he can buy a standalone or get a Hondata and have the Eprom setup to run 550's. Basiclly what he needs to do is make sure that his VAFC is used to make the car idle good. The FMU is only active when positive pressure is seen. Oh, and before I forget, RUN the missing link. Why in god's name someone would tell you to not run this is nutz. Unless you have an ECU that is setup to run a 3bar map you need a missing link. The stok ECU can only see positive pressure of 10psi. More than that and you get a MIL or CEL. All the missing link does is bleeds pressure off as boost increases to keep the MAP from seeing anymore than 10psi. This thing was made for people who don't have standaones and 3bar maps, so have him use it. Now, the FMU is a fine idea as long as the VAFC is set to not wash the cylinders out with fuel as boost increases. The stock ECU takes readings from the O2 sensor and the MAP to make it's changes in fuel. If it detects a serious load it will richen the mixture and no or lite load it will lean the mixture and so on. All the VAFC does is trick the ECU into thinking that it needs fuel when it doesn't. The bad thing about an VAFC when using it with a boosted motor is that it cannot supply enough fuel for more than about 7 psi of boost. The VAFC can't tell the ECU to make the injectors squirt much more than that. That's why an FMU was invented. The normal ratio for an FMU is 12:1. (theoreticlly) It's 12 pounds of fuel for every 1 pound of boost. If your buddy finds a good tuning shop the setup he has should be more than capable of making 300+ HP. You can run ALOT of boost on a motor as long as the A/F ratio is on the money. You get too lean and it's detonation city. You get too rich and you wash the bores down, lose lubrication and run the risk of scorching the bores and burning the rings up. It's a lose lose situation. I run 26psi of boost on 94 octane pump gas and I make 476.4 hp and 393.3 ftlbs of torque @ 9100 rpm. I'd say that's testiment enough that an FMU, SAFC/VAFC, and missing link work just fine together.


Modified by boosted_civic at 4:28 AM 2/7/2004


Modified by boosted_civic at 4:34 AM 2/7/2004


Modified by boosted_civic at 4:38 AM 2/7/2004


Modified by boosted_civic at 4:41 AM 2/7/2004