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Help! Can't tame EGTs!

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Old 01-22-2003, 09:18 AM
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Default Help! Can't tame EGTs!

Well I'm about tired of my car already and I've only had it about a week. I can't get my egts to stay down when I'm just cruising. I will be in 5th gear at 12% throttle and my egts will slowly creep up until my warning light comes on at 800 C. I am trying to just get the motor broken in until I can afford the standalone setup. Right now I have a sleeved 9:1 motor (JE pistons, Crower Rods, headwork, etc) and a drag III kit. I have a 255 intank pump, an aeromotive FMU, rc370s, and a v-afc for some sort of tuning. The timing is set at 9 (I believe stock is 16?) I have tried richening the motor up in the 3k-4k range which is where the egts are getting hot and it doesn't get any better. It also is stuttering every little bit. The motor doesn't blow any smoke and the oil change i did at 300 miles had no dirt in it. It almost looked exactly like it did when I put it in. Any help and suggestions would be much appreciated as I am at the end of my rope and considering canning the entire import performance thing and buying a civic hybrid instead. Thanks.
Old 01-22-2003, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

too much timing retard isnt good for the engine either. Try setting your timing closer to stock. I ran 6.5psi at stock timing on my ZC with no problems, now I didnt have an EGT but I didnt detonate so I assume there was no problem. How much boost are you running? Maybe dial it down (if you can) until the motor is broken in.
Old 01-22-2003, 09:41 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (reXem)

I'm not running any boost whatsoever. The motor only has a few hundred miles on it. The high egts are in vacuum side at partial throttle.
Old 01-22-2003, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

if you are not runnning boost why are you retarding your timiing so much? set it to stock
Old 01-22-2003, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

That's normal. Lower compression engines produce higher EGTs at cruise. Don't worry about it.
Old 01-22-2003, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (dustin)

Set timing to stock and put the fuel back where it was. The EGTs won't get much higher than that ever.
Old 01-22-2003, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (reXem)

My goal is not to damage the motor at all before I get some bigass injectors and a standalone w/tuning so I figured I'd back the timing down to prevent damage.
Old 01-22-2003, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

Yes but there is nothing in your engine that would denote 7 degrees of timing retard, even turbo only retards like 1/4 deg per pound so that would be 28psi!
Old 01-22-2003, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

Anyone else have any input on this? I'd like to get a broad survey of what everyone thinks about it. I KNOW i need a hondata, but I can't find a cheap p28 ecu.
Old 01-22-2003, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

return timing back to stock
Old 01-22-2003, 03:37 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (1bar)

return timing back to stock
and then tell us what happens.
Old 01-22-2003, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (1bar)

You're not boosting so go with stock timing.
Old 01-22-2003, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (1bar)

I will return it to stock tomorrow morning and see how it runs. I just don't want to encourage detonation by advancing the timing back to stock. I suppose I was also under the impression that advanced timing=higher egts anyways. I'll do it and tell you guys how it goes Thanks so much for the input as well as for any future input. I'm constantly learning more and more about these cars and any advice helps.
Old 01-22-2003, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

Retarding the timing starts the burn later, so EGTs tend to be higher with retarded timing. This depends on load and RPM, etc obviously.
Old 01-22-2003, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

Also you are seeing high egt's because your running the car rich as ****. Rich condition causes high egt's cause the gas burns in the manifold where the egt probe is placed.

Oh yeah....return the timing to stock
Old 01-22-2003, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (93LSivic)

I'm resetting the timing tonight and we will see how it goes. I'm putting the v-afc back on the settings I had on the previous set of pistons which is about -15% on 3 and 4k rpms and we will see how it goes. I hope this fixes it because I don't know what i"ll do if I damage the motor before I get a chance to put a standalone on it.
Old 01-23-2003, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

UPDATE. I set the timing up to 14 and the car runs much better. EGTs sit at about 700 when cruising now and some of the stuttering is gone. Thanks for the advice, much appreciated from a moderate noob to you experts.
Old 01-23-2003, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (MayhemSi)

I have this saved in my Notepad on HT. Has some info about EGT's. I forgot who posted it originally, so forgive me if I don't give credit to the author.

There is a gross amount of misinformation floating around about exhaust gas temperatures. I have posted many times explanations to EGT questions. But it seems the search feature here tends to overlook them for whatever reason. I have found an excellent article done by the fine folks over at Simple Digital Systems. It is written in plain English, and is 100% correct. The link is http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm and for those of you that are lazy to click, read below and learn!
There seems to be a lot of mystery and misinformation about using exhaust gas temperatures to tune engines. Claims by many EGT gauge manufacturers about it being the best way to tune an engine must be qualified. The BEST way to tune an engine is on the dyno- PERIOD. What EGT is good for is a reference for where the engine made maximum torque at wide open throttle. Once removed from the dyno, a similar air/fuel ratio can be established a later date by dialing in the mixture to achieve the target EGT. It is really the AFR that is important, not the EGT. Most engines will make maximum power at an AFR of between 11.8 and 13 to 1 however, the EGT may vary from 1250F to 1800F and is dependent on many factors.

It should be mentioned that the target EGT is valid only on the same engine configuration as was used on the dyno. If you change the ignition timing, cams, pistons, headers etc., the optimum EGT may also change. Raising the compression ratio with no other changes will drop the EGT at the same AFR. Retarding the ignition timing will generally raise the EGT at the same AFR. One engine might make best power at 1350 degrees while a very similar engine might be happier at 1500. You can't guess at this or you are simply wasting your money on the instrumentation. Wankel engines have higher EGTs than comparable piston engines due to their lower thermal efficiencies. 1800F is not uncommon here.

Some gauge manufacturers say you should tune to achieve maximum or peak EGT for maximum performance. This is incorrect. Peak EGT generally occurs at an AFR of around 14.7- 15.0 to 1 on gasoline. This is far too lean for maximum power and is dangerous under continuous WOT conditions. Many people think that the leaner you go, the higher the EGT gets. This is also incorrect. Peak EGT occurs at stoichiometry- about 15 to 1 for our purposes. If you go richer than 15 to 1, EGT will drop and if you go leaner than 15 to 1 EGT will ALSO drop. It is VERY important to know which side of peak EGT you are on before making adjustments. It is safe to say that peak power will occur at an EGT somewhat colder than peak EGT.

You can sometimes feel a lean of peak condition as the mixture is hard to ignite and power will be down a bit as well. Once the AFR gets close to 17 to 1 at WOT, generally the engine will start to lean misfire. Most tuners always recommend to begin jetting or programming from a known very rich initial setting and carefully leaning until torque falls off slightly, then going back richer to the point of max torque. Note the EGT at this setting. Be aware that altitude, barometric pressure and ambient air temperature may affect this optimal temperature to some degree.

Are EGT gauges better than AFR meters? Conventional narrow band oxygen sensors and digital LED meters are not the best devices to measure AFR in the richer ranges but they certainly warn of a too lean condition immediately and obviously, without translation by the driver and they are affordable. Meters combined with wide band sensors are laboratory quality usually, highly accurate and useful but very expensive and sometimes bulky. EGT gauges have the limitations above and are generally priced between the other two. I would suggest that the two types are complimentary. EGT gauges have the advantage of working long term with leaded fuel which will clog oxygen sensors. EGT gauges are widely used to set mixture on engines used for steady state high power applications where operation has been carefully documented such as in aircraft. The choice would depend on the application. Both are better if you can afford them.
Old 01-23-2003, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Help! Can't tame EGTs! (93LSivic)

>>Also you are seeing high egt's because your running the car rich as ****.<<

(?)

I'm trying to get my pea brain around EGT's too. So if I'm hearing this right, a lean condition AND a very rich condition will cause high EGT's. Is that correct?
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