Incognito

75 ft/lbs on ARP head studs, and 2 of them came loose at the top at 10psi. What can I do to keep them in place? They loosen a few ft/lbs, not a lot, but it's enough to wreck my head gasket.

Also, does anyone make better sealing LS head gaskets? I run a stock one.

Thanks

D-Man

Use Loctite on em

sgT

That is why I use stock head bolts.

HX_Guy

Yep. I dont see why in the world ARP uses head studs instead of bolts. What is the advantage? Why couldnt they just make OEM type bolts but from a stronger metal?

Adi Radoncic

I would try running a Cometic head gasket, they are sopposed to be the S*it.

bQQsted hybrid

1. Studs provide more accurate and consistent torque loading, which results in a more even clamping force on the head.

2. ARP heads studs can be reused. Stock head bolts can't (well, at least they aren't supposed to)

3. ARP head studs are stronger than head bolts.

dbman96

The problem with bolts is that the interface between the bolt and the head is a HUGE stress riser; that point sees many times higher stress than the bolt itself. So when you tighten a head BOLT that point experiences very high stresses and does yield even if microscopically, but reusing them a couple times can make the heads snap right off. Using studs means that all the tightening torque is distributed over many threads which do not suffer this same stress concentration problem, hence no yielding, no cracking, and the studs can be reused many times.

Incognito

Where can I get a Cometic head gasket (any dealers in NJ)? Are they a lot more expensive than stock?

I'm going to loctite the nuts when I do the head gasket, but will I have trouble taking them off if the head gasket ever goes bad?

earl

This is how I install the ARP's. First run a tap down the threads in the block to make sure they are clean and true. Lightly oil the threads of the stud. Put one tiny drop of Loc-tite on the studs. Screw them in by hand as far as they will go in. Thread two nuts on top of the stud and lock them together. Torque the stud to 20 lbs. Unlock the two nuts from the top of the stud and ur in biz.

Buy your Cometic's directly from the manufacturer. Just call them on their 800 number and order your gasket. They sell direct. Get the # from their web site.

VaporTrail

You obviously haven't built a high boost Honda motor before. I've seen the head actually lift under high boost and stock bolts. And they are the same price as the stockers (which you are supposed to replace each time). Use a little locktite, install them as Earl prescribed, and you have nothing to worry about.

You can purchase a Cometic head gasket from http://www.raceeng.com or from Endyn


[Modified by VaporTrail, 10:56 PM 12/17/2001]

Incognito

I don't think my problems lie in the head gasket, but only with the head stud (nut) coming loose. Not sure why they are coming loose.

Tomorrow we're going to try a new stock head gasket, and maybe some loctite on the top nut, or just double nut the top so there would be no way of it to back out and untorque itself.

Last time we torqued the head down to 75 ft/lbs. Is 80 going to be too much?

MackSpeed-616

I dunno what you guys are talking about ... the ONLY thing that makes head studs worth it over bolts is that they can be re-used... woo hoo big deal, id rather my head seal and have to buy bolts each time.

I have had the head lift under boost with studs, and no problem with bolts, I'd been through about 5 gaskets (yeah that got expensive) one time trying to figure out why my head wouldnt seal. And im not the only one, it has apparently happend with Terry and I have about 5 friends that over the last year have had the same problem.

Ditch the studs and get OEM BOLTS AND OEM GASKETS and you will be a happy man.

earl

MAN, you got it all wrong. Don't do what you are planning. The only way a nut can come loose is if the stud is not installed properly. Double nutting and loc-tite won't help anything. The head gasket has nothing to do with it either. I run 22 lbs boost with the studs and REUSE my Cometic gasket. I've had the head off several times and use the same gasket with no problems.
PLUS you are torquing the head down too tight. If you use bolts, stay with the stock setting. If you use ARP studs add 5 lbs to stock. Be sure to use steel washers under the head of the bolt or nut. You will mess up the head if you don't. Do your stud install as I wrote earlier in this thread and you should be fine.

Incognito

So don't loctite the top, and only torque them to about 70 ft/lbs or so? I think stock is between 62 and 65. Should I use the assembly lube, or 5W30 oil (on top).

greyzone

Do NOT USE loctit...

Retap the threads and lightly greese the threads of the studs...they should hold okay....its a problem with your threads, lock tight is not the solution here.

And by the way, torque is LESS than stock, should be about 45 or 50, they dont stretch or flex, therefore they dont need to be torqued **** *** tight.

If in doubt call ARP, they are real helpful



[Modified by greyzone, 10:47 PM 12/18/2001]

turbotypeR@SPEC

arp says that they should be 5 more than stock.mine seems to be doing the same thing.i went to the track several weeks ago and made about 5 runs after the last run i noticed that the water temp was higher than normal(about 205).i turned the car off and let it cool down and drove home and it never ran hot.the next day i had to add a good bit of water and noticed that the overflow bottle was full.i have been driving it every day since and it has not overheated once.i plan on checking the torque on the studs in the next few days.before,i have had three engine rebuilds on the same factory head bolts with no problems.even with an accidental 50lbs of boost excursion.i am wondering if the factory bolts are better myself.

Adi Radoncic

Earl what do you mean, lock two nuts together? And do you do this to get the stud tightened up to the block??

How much do stock bolts cost anyways???

earl

With all due respect, you're wrong about the 50 lb torque. That's the beauty of the ARPs, you can tighten them MORE without stretching them. You need to hold that head in position when boosting and 50 lbs won't do that.

earl

Lock two nuts together by screwing them on, hold the lower one in place with a open end wrench and then tighten the upper one into the lower one. By doing that you can then use the upper nut to help thread the stud into the block and use it to actually torque the stud lightly in place (15-20 lbs max). Once the stud is in place, put your open end back on the lower nut and break the upper nut free. You normally can't just screw an ARP stud in by hand and get them tight enough. When all the studs are installed they should look to be at the same height. If one is higher than the others, there IS a problem.
BTW, if you ever mess up the threads on an ARP, try running a dye down them. They are so tuff that the stud rips the threads out of the dye. Unbelievable!

greyzone

FYI http://www.arp-bolts.com/


Less torque is actually true IF using ARP's moly lubricant (this was my expereince), when doing this the recomended torque is actually LESS than stock...this is from the ARP web site:

"The lubricant used is the main factor in determining friction, and therefore, the torque for a particular installation. Motor oil is a commonly used lubricant because of it’s ready availability. If less friction is desired in order to install the fasteners with less torque, special low friction lubricants are available. With special lubes, the required torque can be reduced as much as 20 to 30 percent. It is important to keep in mind that the reverse is also true. If the torque value has been specified for a particular fastener on the basis of low friction lube, installing the fastener with motor oil will result in insufficient preload; the torque has to be increased to compensate for the extra friction caused by the motor oil.

Also, here's some other good info from their web site. And by the way, they DO recommend Loctite, so my bad on that one, sorry:
HEAD STUDS vs. BOLTS... A TECHNICAL DISCUSSION

ARP®’s factory Tech Representatives are often asked which is better, cylinder head studs or bolts. The answer, invariably, depends on the installation. On many street-driven vehicles, where master cylinders and other items protrude into the engine compartment, it’s probably necessary to use head bolts so that the cylinder heads can be removed with the engine in the car.

For most applications, however, studs are recommended. And for good reason. Using studs will make it much easier to assemble an engine (especially a racing powerplant which must be serviced frequently and quickly!) with the cylinder head and gasket assured of proper alignment.

Studs also provide more accurate and consistent torque loading. Here’s why. When you use bolts to secure the head, the fastener is actually being “twisted” while it’s being torqued to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in a “relaxed” mode—never crank it in tightly using a jammed nut.

If everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight. Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch only on the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run.

Check out their web site...good info



[Modified by greyzone, 11:34 PM 12/18/2001]

bigTom

ya know whats funny... granted i use them and trust in arp head studs... i have a stud sitting on my desk in front of me right now... on one end of it... the thread is stretched out and thinner in that area... its actually a pretty funny site considering u dont see this that often... id put a picture up but photopoint took a ****! where the hell did they go!?

dbman96

I beg your pardon but could you fill us in on what turbo you're running that can reach 50 psi of boost on an "accidental excursion"??

greyzone

hahah, "Oops, that was just a 50psi blip, no big deal, thank God it wasnt really high, might have done some damage."

turbotypeR@SPEC

i had a haltech ecu with "anti-lag"it has a selenoid to add boost to the wastegate as the ecu retards timing.as a result you can launch with 15-20lbs of boost.really cool feature,but the selenoid i had would not close once it saw boost.the wastegate closed completely and allowed the turbo(t3 high flow w/60-1) to make all of the boost it could.my freind owns the turbo shop it was built at and he said that it was somwhere between 50-60 psi.it cracked all four cylinders and melted the pistons.the head and head gasket were still fine.

LSVTEC99

I WOULD SAY MAKE SURE THAT THE THREADS IN BLOCK AND ON STUD ARE CLEAN AND THEN TRY IT AGAIN AND I WOULD SAY NEXT TIME AEBS OR GOLDEN EAGLE STUDS AND STAY WITH OEM THERE THE BEST GASKETS, AND FOR THOSE WHO SAID MAKE BOLTS THAT WILL BE POINTLESS NO BOLT IS EVER SRTONGER THAN STUD/NUT KIT SORRY .....AND LOCTITE U CAN TRY I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH MY ARP WHEN I HAD THEM BUT I WENT GOLDEN EAGLE MUCH MORE STEADY WHEN TORQUING NO SLIPS NOR LOOSE SPOTS...GOOD LUCK