C M S

I have been reading for weeks now and I have decided to ge with Benson sleeves for my H22 build. But my dilema is the whole closed deck vs. open deck debate. I know either way my boosting needs will be met(?-25psi). I already have my closed deck H22a striped down and ready. However, for 200-300 dollars I can pick up a empty H22a4 with open deck. I want to know what the better design(open or closed) is before I spend xxxdollars on my block build. I just want to hear some opinions/tech before I drop the dough...

Thanks...

C M S

Going to bed, bump for some info....

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Closed deck is stronger but open deck allows for better cooling around the top of the cylinders where it is most critical.

I didnt think Benson would even do a closed deck because bc a sleeved open deck motor is strong enough. Stick with open deck.

2001accord

stick with the open deck h22a4. They have larger main journals as well, which will give you a little extra strenght in the crank. Between that and the cooling advantages for what you are doing go with the A4. I have a A4 and boosting to 15psi, making 740+hp at the flywheel when i was testing it. With mild work and <25psi like you said you should be 4-500whp.

C M S

But if I switch to a H22a4 I will need to get the crank for the a4 as well right? I already bought standard bore CP pistons and Eagle rods, those will still work....

1700anddroping

yes your pistons and rods will work......just make sure the crank you has the 55mm mains for the a4 block......

pm me i have both......



harv

sharkcohen

'97 H22a4 has the smaller main journals.

PrecisionH23a

I would go with the closed deck personally. I have ran plenty of closed deck set-ups with no problems as far as cooling goes. The stability of the sleeves are also that much stronger.

If you are that worried about cooling, you could always go with the MID design sleeve.

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didnt think Benson would even do a closed deck because bc a sleeved open deck motor is strong enough. Stick with open deck.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think that's true too...earl is the one to talk to about Benson sleeved blocks. Here is his thread on Benson blocks:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=848849

C M S

I have talked to Earl and Benson DOES do the stock closed deck H22a. My concerns arent so much cooling, more with I want a strong block......

Finest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BigBlock &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I have talked to Earl and Benson DOES do the stock closed deck H22a. My concerns arent so much cooling, more with I want a strong block......</TD></TR></TABLE>

While rare, open deck aftermarket sleeves can still crack and shift from detonation. I think you know what to do.

1700anddroping

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Finest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

While rare, open deck aftermarket sleeves can still crack and shift from detonation. I think you know what to do. </TD></TR></TABLE>


yeah go w/benson's.....as far as shifting.benson's blocks are step decked....so that eliminates that theory of yours......and detonation can happen on any motor from not being tuned correctly.


harv

PrecisionH23a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1700anddroping &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


yeah go w/benson's.....as far as shifting.benson's blocks are step decked....so that eliminates that theory of yours......and detonation can happen on any motor from not being tuned correctly.


harv</TD></TR></TABLE>

Step-decked does not eliminate shifting or distortion of sleeves under boost. That primarily is the finish on the surface deck (sleeve sits higher than deck).

If you want a stouter block, go closed deck. End of story. I've done several closed deck H22a's that have hit over 450whp with NO problems with cooling.

C M S

Thanks for the info guys. I will most likely go my current closed deck....

1700anddroping

how can you say finish.....when it protrudes above the deck.......and how is that a finish.OPEN DECK IS ALOT BETTER FOR COOLING...period.....i have had several h22 turbo'd motors all have been open deck 600+ hp monsters.

maybe you have been to scared to try open deck and stuck on the closed deck theory......why do you think dan benson will not do a closed deck block....he's #1 not a thread one about one of his blocks sinking or shifting you like to call it.


now look at these closed deck blocks,i am not saying all of them....but all you hear is sleeves sinking.


harv

flip1199

h22 came closed deck stock. hundred of people are running them without any cooling problems what so ever. would honda have kept the closed deck design for so long if it had cooling problems. benson's doesnt do the closed deck conversion but he will sleeve the already closed deck h22a. stick with what u have(h22a). all those people who say the h22a4 will cool soooo much better obviously dont really know bout all the h22a's h23a's that came factory with closed deck without any problems of cooling.

1700anddroping

before you go running your mouth about people not knowing there h-series....then why in the hell did they change to open deck after so long.....

harv

Finest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1700anddroping &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">before you go running your mouth about people not knowing there h-series....then why in the hell did they change to open deck after so long.....
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I sense a little hostility. Let's not go there, this thread is suppose to be informative.

Whatever reasons Honda decided to change the block design, the point is that closed deck motors haven't exhibited any cooling problems, in boosted or n/a applications. So let's just get over that part.

Secondly, like Precision stated, step decking doesn't eliminate shifting/distortion when under boost. The fact is, if it's a floating cylinder, it runs the risk of shifting. Rare, yes...but possible. A closed deck eliminates any chance of this happening. Besides, even Earl himself states in this thread about step decking: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1356709

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The latest thinking from automotive engineers is that the best sealing surface available for aluminum blocks with mls headgaskets is a micro smooth flat surface. Stepped decks are not the way to go anymore.</TD></TR></TABLE>

In addition, a closed deck design also offers greater surface area for the headgasket and head to be torqued down to.

PrecisionH23a

To be quite honest with you guys this is one big pissing match. Nobody insulted your credibility harv, so calm down. I don't know why you get so pissy on this board when someone disagree's with you. It's the damn internet bro.

I also appologized if I used improper terminology, thank you for pointing that out to me. Read what I wrote in parenthesis, you'll see I explained what I meant by 'finish'. I have 5 step-decked engines in my garage waiting to be build so I do have experience with these blocks.

Closed deck... Open deck... both can make great power. End of story. Now in theory a closed deck will deter the amount of rocking from the sleeves under HIGH boost pressures since the sleeve is braced/stabilized to the deck at the top of the sleeves. Now I do not have any data from any tests performed to measure how much the sleeves move on an open deck, so I am strictly going by theory here. As far as cooling issues, that arguement is over-rated and has been proven wrong time and time again by plenty of closed deck high whp applications. In theory again, you would want more cooling at the top of the sleeve since this is where detonation occurs... so in theory having coolant in the area would help transfer/dissapate heat and allow for lower combustion chamber temperatures to a certain extent.

Now with theory aside, in my opinion both types of engines are pefectly fine for high horsepower applications - daily driven or strictly for the drag strip. The key here is the quality of the machine work. End of story. If you want a closed deck sleeve, I would go with the Darton Modular Integrated Deck style sleeve which encorperates a closed deck set-up along with coolant holes to keep the upper portion of the sleeve cool. Personally, I am a mechanical engineering student so I tend to listen to theory over the typical guys that say 'Hey I've made 83982734whp with an open deck block.' If closed deck sucked so much... then explain why DART does all closed deck blocks.





Those are from a B series engine. I have a MID H23a block in my garage I'm currently working on... I'll try and post some pics up of that later if I get a chance and you guys want to see it.

PrecisionH23a

Oh ya... I forgot to mention that the reason Honda switched to an open deck design is because it is less prone to casting reject, therefore it has a much higher productivity rate. It had nothing to do with cooling issues at all.

To each his own...

1700anddroping

ok first off fella's.i do not have to agree w/everyone on ht,second everyone does not have to agree w/me.i speak my mind plain and simple...no hard feelings in any way..although it may be worded that way.


to me a open deck block is very strong when it is step decked.....the sleeves are butted against the head...also the thickness of the sleeves act as an oring.sealing the block really good and still has it's cooling capabilities.


closed deck is alo VERY GOOD to...but just not my block of choice.....

no hard feelings here fella's...i think sometimes i just get caught up in the moment....like those 9 sec 1/4 miles......


harv

PrecisionH23a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1700anddroping &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
no hard feelings here fella's...i think sometimes i just get caught up in the moment....like those 9 sec 1/4 miles......


harv</TD></TR></TABLE>

*cough* 11 seconds *cough* *cough*

1700anddroping

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1282519

if it don't run a lo 9.....i will give it away...will put 1k against anyone who doubts it...when it is said and done.........


harv

1700anddroping

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

*cough* 11 seconds *cough* *cough*</TD></TR></TABLE>


is that what you run when you pay the guy in the tower not to show your 14 sec et's........

C M S

This is great info, keep it comming...