importtuner

Hey guys, this is my first post in the FI section, so bear with me. Well here's the story. I came to the conclusion that FI is the way to go if you want power and save a lot of money. I currently drive a 2000 ITR; and as all of you might know it; it has absolutely no torque off the line. I'm not a big drag racer or quarter mile junkie, but I would like to know what would be the perfect setup/ compromise for a street/track setup. See I want something that spools up instantaniously; to get out of the hole at least, but I also want to make a lot of top end power; since auto-x'ing is all about that. So to my understanding, in order to accomplish this, I would have to have a twin; possibly a sequential setup with a small turbo and a fairly large one to have a sweet power band. But as I see it; its really not worth going that route due to the intense customization and fabrication needed to support that. A second possibility is to have a small turbo setup with high duration cams; if that's feasible. Another thing I wouldn't want anything that just alters streetability; hence uncontrollable wheelspin throughout the gears. So what would be the perfect setup for street and auto-x????
-importtuner

blufke

a supercharger, if you want instantaneous tq. otherwise i would build up that itr NA. a quick spooling turbo would be fine too. you just have to compromise with a quick spool up and how much power you want up top.

importtuner

No matter what; I will never go the supercharged route; its just so ineffiecient, paracitic, and does not have much potential.

blufke

then you need to build up NA or get a small turbo that makes the power you want up top while spooling quickly.

_Shadow_

You should get one of those ball bearing turbos like the gt25 or something. I thought those spooled up fast and still had great top end. They are expensive as hell though.

tygsr

The HKS gt series is sick, fast spool up and flow soo good. LIke he said very expensive. Greddy doesnt make a kit for ITR I dont think but that size turbo wouldnt be bad either..

TruePlayaz114

stay na, you have a ITR that's made for all motor. The ITR is made for autox. Just build the motor a little with a little higher compression and some killer cams and you're gonna haul ***. Revving to 9 grand, no lag just straight power. I've never seen anyone with a turboed honda that didn't have problems with autox. It's cool for drag racing but not for a long amount of time like autox.

boostinb18

yah go NA!! et some big cams and some pistons and stuff.

fsp31

Another reason to consider N.A. is Autocross classing. Right now, you're probably legal for either D stock, STX, or C Street Prepared. The ITR is *very* competitive in DS or STX, but not CSP for a variety of reasons. A turbo will take you straight to Street Mod where a ITR will most definitely be uncompetitive. Consider it this way. I could do all the same things to an 88 Civic hatch that you could do to your ITR. Same motor, turbo, suspension mods, etc. But no matter what, that 88 Civic will be several hundred pounds lighter.

That said, if you still want to go FI for autox, there are a lot of "nay-sayers" out there, but the proof is in the results. Fact is, about 80% of the Civics that showed up for Nationals in Topeka KS this year were boosted. I know. I was unlucky enough to be there in one of the non-boosted Hondas. It was like bringing a knife to a gunfight. And I started on my turbo kit as soon as I got home...

As far as wheelspin, lag, etc. There are ways to deal with those issues, most of them involving good driving technique. Contrary to popular belief, turbo lag isn't much of an issue for the really good FWD autoxers. The best guys can flat foot 85-90% of the course. Not much opportunity for lag there...

But mainly it's about FUN. If a turbo will help you have more fun then go for it!

Mr. Vapor

not to ruin the thread but a few observations:

First, AutoX is 99% driver, not car. i dont really think from my experience that simply adding a turbo will make you a better autoXer. i cant tell you how many times ive seen miatas and civics own vipers and vettes on the autoX track.

Secondly, id go for the JRSC if you want instantionus power, parasitic, yes to some degree, however it will increase HP by X%.

thirdly, its tough to find a QUICk spooling AND HIGH TOP end turbo, usually ya pick one or hte other! anyways, good luck, but in MY opinion the C5 engine is made for NA! way to much work to get the compression down when honda has spent all that work getting it up!

boostinb18

yah i know guy who has a R he autocrosses and tears it up!! all he has is mugen i/h/e and roll bar, mugen racing seat........ stock suspension and hes faster then most the cars out there cause hes a damn good driver and the R's are great for auto-x.............. my vote is still NA!

done

I say get your turbo based on what you want on street, if you want top end, or if you want quick spooling. on autox I think its alll about how you drive your car, you just basically learn to keep it in boost...

Adi Radoncic

I would personally stick with what most of these guys sead and stay NA and just go with a Toda Header, Testpipe, Mugen Twin-loop Catback and an Comptech Icebox intake basicly your usual bolt-ons..

But if you really baddly wanna go with the turbocharged route I would get yourself a greddy turbo kit, manly because the turbo is small and spools up tromendously quick and has good power throughout the band.. Also the way they have it setup with the manifold heatshield cover it gives it a clean and almost stock look.
But I do wanna warn you thou turbo charging a car goes fahr beyond just buying a turbo kit and bolting it on, there is a lot of factors that come along with a turbo in the sence of getting your car to drive right, feel right and being as efficient as it is now.
And requres you to go out and buy more stuff like a bigger exhaust system, some kind of a fuel management unit, some monitoring devices and last but not least tuning, tuning and some more tuning..

So I just thought I'd put my 0.2 cents in here and I hope you make the right decision whatever it may be also think about what some of the other guys pointed out as fahr as classes go...

Adi

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

good topic.

turbo is obviously gonna be the key to getting power out of that motor. and im not talking about 9k rpm all motor big cam power im talking about insane torque, throw u in ur seat, type of power. turbo is the only way to get that.

but when u give a car that is set up for 175hp, 200-300ft/lbs of torque, its gonna throw it a bit off balance. the way i see it, if you want your ITR to be competive you are gonna need to modify it as best as possible withen the rules and regulations of the class u want to race it in. its gonna cost alot more to be competive in the class u will be in if u go turbo.

I think your gonna need to decide what u want more. do u want your car to be affordable and competetive in your class. or do u want brute power w/ torque throwing u back in the seat, with u trying to keep your car on the road handleing the torque steer while heating up the brakes like crazy cause u r now going into turn 4 20mph faster then u used too.

turbo is definitly your answer to getting the power u want but are u willing to upgrade the rest of the car to keep it balanced?


[Modified by DIRep972, 1:13 AM 10/29/2002]

ion_four

So, we better all stop using this board and take off our mods to go to driver's school.
I think anyone that has been autocrossing realizes that the driver is MOST important when you have a competitive car. If you are thrown into street modified because of some gimpy mod and everyone else is decent and has a car that is supremely better than yours, you will not be competitive even if you are the better driver.

I would agree though that Supercharging might be the way to go for autoX. I've seen some not-so-quick times from turbo cars that would rip up the drag strip...

SIXTYdashONE

go NA...... please

Mr. Vapor

well not to be sarcastic, but driving school will net you better times then any modification you could do. ive been to several schools, Mosport, Bridgestone/firestone etc etc.

and trust me i know the woes that come with putting on a turbo and racing AutoX, as i race in street mod thanks to the snail underneath my hood. street mod becomes a money class, no holds barred, who ever has the most money to dump into their car.

but back to the original statement i HONESTLY and FIRMLY believe that honing your driving ability will net you better times on the track, not a turbo.

fsp31

>>i HONESTLY and FIRMLY believe that honing your driving ability will net you better times on the track, not a turbo.<<


Having seen the multitudes of poorly driven ITR's out there, I heartily concur. A stock ITR is one *tough* car to extract all it's potential from and very few people can actually do it. But, an ITR is definitely capable of some damned impressive times. There's a reason it goes into DS with the WRX. Doesn't look good for the ITR on paper, and at most local events the WRX kicks some acura ***. However, when the real talent shows up, the ITR's always win. That's because the WRX's are easier to drive fast, however ITR's are *capable* of going faster.

hybridsol

Wow. Someone with an ITR complaining about performance. In auto-x. Um, how bad are you being beaten? I run in D Mod with a B18C1 swap (at least I did) on street tires, the good ITR guys usually beat me by at least several seconds, and then they crush me with the PAX time. The other DM cars are race machines, I have no chance. I do it for fun... I could run in SM2, I think the PAX would be better, not sure.

There's a guy who runs a 93? B16A turbo civic hatch, he tries like hell every time, and he's getting better but it's been:

Throtttle -> wheelspin ->brake ->turn -> repeat

All around the course. Not fun. Why would want to go out of DS class? Are you runnng on auto-x slicks? Are you REALLY sure this is what you want? If so, a SC is the way to go, sorry, it's just life. It's not like your're winding it out in 4th gear on a road course....

BUT if you absolutely are set on a turbo, a super 60 T3 is about as large as you would want to go It won't give gobs of power, but it will spool. You would still need fuel management adder, custom downpipe, (ITR exhaust is larger diameter than kits), external wastegate and intercooler. With 11:1 I would seriously consider the F-MAX head gasket (2mm thk) to reduce CR. Get full auto-x slicks on new wheels, and practice, practice, practice....

Sean (BTW I have clips of me racing the B18C1 on my web site )

fsp31

>>I could run in SM2, I think the PAX would be better, not sure.<<

It would be *way* better. I'm also hoping they specifically move the Sol back into SM where it belongs. Seeing as how there's an "exclusion list" for the class, logic follows that there would also be an "inclusion list".

I think part of this debate has to do with local autox regions and the types of courses they run. In my region, courses are HUGE. At the last event, I was in 3rd gear in 4 different spots. These courses more closely resemble the one's you'll find at a National Tour or National Championships. At a course like that, more power can be quite an advantage.

austrian type-R

go Turbo, you will have no probs at autoX, believe me, I have done it 12 times this season. I have a T3/T04e from the DRAG III kit and lag was NO problem. Before turbo I had an JRSC and was very angry on autoX with turbo. Our first autoX this season was very tiny and I could not believe it went out sooo gooood. No lag at all.

I bring down about 370whp, but on autoX I drive with the lowest boost setting of the wg spring (0.45 Bar) it is soooo much fun and the people who watch you are always annoyed when they hear the ppssshshhhhhhhhhh.

AutoX with an Turboed Honda ownz, y00...I drive it for fun and not to collect points for the autoX cup. I run slicks too and I get always better with every envent. Gotta it

PS: I think I am the only one with lots of AutoX experience and kick azz turbo setup on this board. AutoX is very popular in Austria, so I have the chance to drive every weekend what I do.

Edit: next season I will try some footwork with throttle and brake at the same time to give the turbo better spool out of corners, but like I said, turbo lag, what the hell is that!


[Modified by austrian type-R, 6:40 PM 10/29/2002]

importtuner

Woah!! Thanks for the replies guys. See my ultimate goal was to have enough power that the balance of the whole car remains unchanged. Don't get me wrong, I had a perfect plan going the NA route, but as most of you know, only certain manufacturers are able to obtain/unleash a few horses from the highly tuned B18C5 motor, but the only disadvantage is that its ridiculously expensive. A header costs upwards of $1500 as well as an exhaust. Changing internals, valve springs, port job, blueprint and balancing, cams, etc. is way too expensive. Although it is more respectable to go all motor; it is to say at the least, expensive. We're looking at about thousands of dollars here. Going turbo can yield you the best powerband, depending on how much power you crave. But a setup that can successfully accomplish my needs without affecting the balance of the whole car itself is hard to find. A lot of people has recommended to me to go with the Greddy kit; and for the price you can't beat it and plus I'm not looking for a big turbo anyways. So I'm not really sure what to do. I have heard stories of all motor hondas doing superb in the auto-x; which of course is the driver, but I have never heard of superb turbod hondas at the auto-x. So convince me. Last but not the least, what's the difference between a 240 whp NA Honda and a 240 whp turboed Honda; which will you guys find better in overall performance?
-importtuner

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

I would go the turbo route still. dont go greddy, a ball bearing T3 .48 AR w/ a 2.5 + inch downpipe will offer INSANE quick spool up. combine that with a compressor that will flow adequatly in the power band u will spend most of ur time in and u will have yourself tons of power from 3-8000rpms.

the difference between NA 240whp is that it is making that at 9000rpms. a turbo can make 240whp at 6000rpms on lowwwwww boost and alot more torque to boot. plenty more potential as well.


[Modified by DIRep972, 6:40 PM 10/29/2002]

austrian type-R

240 whp with n/a............lots off $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
240whp with turbo.......... maybe 3500 USD

fsp31

>>See my ultimate goal was to have enough power that the balance of the whole car remains unchanged.<<

I don't think I agree with the assertion that power affects the balance of the vehicle. Balance is ALL about the driver. 80 hp applied at the wrong time and/or wrong place will completely blow a run. You've probably heard the saying: "I'll have enough horsepower when I can spin my wheels the length of the longest straightaway"? A lot of people take it as a joke, but with the right driver it's a fairly accurate statement. Lag, non-linear power delivery, big torque, etc. can all be controlled by appropriate application of the loud pedal.