gser67

im new to boost, but planning on building a kit this spring. b18c1
ok im planning on running 7-8 psi daily driven stock internals for now.....10psi tops at the strip.
1)im wondering if i need to get new injectors if i already have a 255 fuel pump, aem rail, and aem fpr?

2)i am also wondering if it is ok to run the kit with my stock p72 ecu un-chipped for the time being and get hondata a little later then tune from there?
or can i run stock ecu....tune it as much as possible like that....then retune when i get hondata.

funds are tight for the time being seeing as im still in college but i want to make sure it is a nice safe set up until i get out of school and can dump some real money into it.

thanks alot for the help!

BlueShadow

Is it an OBD 1 or OBD 2 B18C1?

Have you heard of Uberdata? it's very similar to Hondata, but's its a free program. The only thing you have to pay for are the supplies and hardware to run it.

Here is a price list I posted on that thread:

free -uberdata
$55-$85 - chip burner
$15 - ECU chipping supplies
$10 - Nokia cell phone cable (wire it in to your ECU for datalogging)
$40 - DSM 450cc
$15 - resistor box

And here are a few other options you can get, which aren't absolutely necessary or can be borrowed from somebody else:

$175 - Ostrich romulator
$280 - Zeitronix wideband O2 setup

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1147922

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1139873

Cray91

It is a little more polarized than that. If you are gonna do all the tuning yourself, then you need the ship burner, wideband, and cable.

If you are gonna let someone else do it, then you only need the injectors and the ECU hardware.

tgreaves

Why 7-8psi daily and why 10psi at the track.. Do you think that the boost level your running directly affects the safety of the motor and/or the power its going to put out??????

gser67

its a 96 obd-2a....so is the concensous that i will need new injectors?
and yeah i woud say bumping up the psi to 10 psi on track days should give me a little extra something. how would it not? bump up the boost bump up the hp. as for why only 7-8 daily? because that seems like a safe number to run for now on stock internals.

thought about uberdata but.....probably gonna go hondata

so will my stock p72 ecu work alright after slapping on a turbo?

dustin

First, you need some sort of fuel system. Right now you have no fuel system.

An AEM rail doesn't do anything, AEM fpr doesn't do anything, and the fuel pump would work great if you had larger injectors. But you can only control larger injectors with some sort of eng. management system.

If the ECU is unchipped, you are going to have to run an FMU. FMUs are poo-poo but they can work for about 7psi. Don't run 10psi on a B18C1 for me, please. You'll wish you hadn't. (Just take a look at the timing maps in the stock P72 ecu around 0 manifold pressure....). You will need a HIGH PRESSURE, INLINE fuel pump to use the FMU. No, a walbro 255HP is not going to cut it. Don't make me find/post the flow graphs for this particular pump. You need ridiculously high rail pressure for the FMU to work correctly, and you will lean out with the walbro. Anyone that says otherwise is being naive.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or can i run stock ecu....tune it as much as possible like that....then retune when i get hondata.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Without engine management, there is nothing to "tune" on your car. You can't tune a stock ECU, you can't tune an FMU.

tgreaves

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gser67 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and yeah i woud say bumping up the psi to 10 psi on track days should give me a little extra something. how would it not? bump up the boost bump up the hp. as for why only 7-8 daily? because that seems like a safe number to run for now on stock internals.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Many reasons why it would not, PSI is a tool used to allow you motor to put out more power as long as the air flow is there.. You say 10psi being safe for stock internals, 10psi from a little T3 is fine, What about 10psi from a T3/T4 or a straight T4.......

gser67

ok so bigger injectors it is....and **** then i might as well just get the hondata at the same time since i really dont feel like wrecking my motor.

what are a few things to check before boosting. i have been thinking about getting a compression test and maybe a leak down test done before hand.
any ideas on how much im lookin to spend to have these things done?
thanks for all the help.

as for the turbo i havent even desided how big i want...i was thinkin t28 for the fast spool...but i sure do like the t3/t4. suggestions are welcome

dustin

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tgreaves &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Many reasons why it would not, PSI is a tool used to allow you motor to put out more power as long as the air flow is there.. You say 10psi being safe for stock internals, 10psi from a little T3 is fine, What about 10psi from a T3/T4 or a straight T4.......</TD></TR></TABLE>

10psi is 10psi. The pressure is a result of the engine not flowing enough air on its own. In some respect, for a given volume of air flow, manifold pressure is a measure of the inefficiency of the engine to flow enough air. The engine will flow just as much "air" (volume) at 10psi on a little turbo as it will on a large turbo. Larger turbos are usually more efficient at flowing/compressing air (read the compressor maps). So they do not heat the air up as much, hence the air itself is more dense, hence there is more O2 in a given volume of air, hence you can mix more fuel with it, hence you can make more power.

DaX

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gser67 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok so bigger injectors it is....and **** then i might as well just get the hondata at the same time since i really dont feel like wrecking my motor.

what are a few things to check before boosting. i have been thinking about getting a compression test and maybe a leak down test done before hand.
any ideas on how much im lookin to spend to have these things done?
thanks for all the help.

as for the turbo i havent even desided how big i want...i was thinkin t28 for the fast spool...but i sure do like the t3/t4. suggestions are welcome</TD></TR></TABLE>

A leakdown and compression test are a must IMO...and the gauges aren't that expensive to own your own set.

I was at a dilema when picking out my turbo too...I wanted fast spool but also power. I went with a T3/T04E, but instead of the standard 0.63 A/R turbine, I have a 0.48 A/R turbine housing with a stg. 3 wheel for quicker spool. This sacrifices a little bit of top power, but I'm nowhere close to maxing out the turbo yet. My cold side is an E compressor housing with a 0.60 A/R.

tgreaves

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dustin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

10psi is 10psi. The pressure is a result of the engine not flowing enough air on its own. In some respect, for a given volume of air flow, manifold pressure is a measure of the inefficiency of the engine to flow enough air. The engine will flow just as much "air" (volume) at 10psi on a little turbo as it will on a large turbo. Larger turbos are usually more efficient at flowing/compressing air (read the compressor maps). So they do not heat the air up as much, hence the air itself is more dense, hence there is more O2 in a given volume of air, hence you can mix more fuel with it, hence you can make more power.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So your saying that at the same air tempeture going into the intake manifold, both a T4 and a T25, both at the same boost levels will put out the same amount of power??

dustin

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tgreaves &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So your saying that at the same air tempeture going into the intake manifold, both a T4 and a T25, both at the same boost levels will put out the same amount of power??</TD></TR></TABLE>

If both were delivering the same density of air, then yes. But that is not possible, since they don't do that.

If you push the exact same amount of O2 into a motor, it does not matter what is compressing it.

tgreaves

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dustin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If both were delivering the same density of air, then yes. But that is not possible.

If you push the exact same amount of O2 into a motor, it does not matter what is compressing it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well if they are both flowing the same volume of air at the same psi and are flowing the same temp of air then what makes them different? A turbo doesnt magically split the air and produce compressed air with less oxygen in it..

dustin

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tgreaves &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well if they are both flowing the same volume of air at the same psi and are flowing the same temp of air then what makes them different?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nothing. But they don't do the above.

Also, keep in mind that T25s have ridiculously small turbines, so that exhaust is clamped off. But I'm only talking about the compressor here.

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gser67 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as for the turbo i havent even desided how big i want...i was thinkin t28 for the fast spool...but i sure do like the t3/t4. suggestions are welcome</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would say go for the turbo with better top end, and in this case it would be the T04. I beleive a T04E 50-57 trim compressor with a stgIII 0.63 a/r turbine should work well for you. At 7 PSI on that turbo you're probably looking at about 225-250 WHP and 275-300 WHP or so at 10 PSI. But if I were you I would get injectors good for at least 350-400 WHP.

I believe a set of 550cc's should be good for about 350ish WHP...they can handle a little more if you raise your fuel pressure with your FPR.

EDIT: forgot to mention that a T28 at 7-10 PSI will not be capable of a lot of power. Probably around 200-225 WHP, just a WAG. Not only that but if you run one at 10 PSI the compressor is gonna be working a lot harder and it will end up making the compressed air a LOT hotter. Maybe hot enough to the point where it might lead to preignition.


Modified by BlueShadow at 2:26 PM 2/18/2005

dustin

Say for example you could run the compressor off an external source, say an extremely high powered hamster motor heh (no turbine, no backpressure). If both engines had the same manifold pressure, and at the same air density (impossible, but bear with me), the engine would make the same amount of power on any compression source (T25, T4, foot operated bike pump, etc)

tgreaves

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dustin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Say for example you could run the compressor off an external source, say an extremely high powered hamster motor heh (no turbine, no backpressure). If both engines had the same manifold pressure, and at the same air density (impossible, but bear with me), the engine would make the same amount of power on any compression source (T25, T4, foot operated bike pump, etc)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right, I guess im asking how the air can be denser when flow, pressure, and tempeture are all the same?

dustin

It won't. But little turbos heat the air up; the temperature is different. Look at the compressor maps for a T25. So you make less power with the smaller turbo because:

1) you burn less fuel (not enough O2 to oxidize it)
2) exhaust clamped off
3) must run less timing since the intake charge is hotter

Even big turbos will heat air up more than they should if they aren't run at the right pressure ratio or on the right engine (displacement/rpm).

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tgreaves &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well if they are both flowing the same volume of air at the same psi and are flowing the same temp of air then what makes them different? A turbo doesnt magically split the air and produce compressed air with less oxygen in it.. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You have to remember that it's not just volume of air that is important it's density. What is volume? it is the space occupied by something in 3D (Length x Width x Height).

A Cubic Foot of air from a T25 is the same as a Cubic Foot of air from a T4. But if those two were to operate at a pressure of 10 PSI then the AIR DENSITY will be different within that 1 Cubic Foot space. Temperature is what affects the air density the most because one compressor heats up the air more then the other. Dustin said that "IF" a T25 and T4 could deliver the same air, temp etc...but he said it's not possible since they dont actually do that.

DaZman69

the temperature difference is just a small reason why bigger turbos make more power, I'd say 75-90 percent of it is from the exhaust restriction difference

Si Shane

Real simple here, think of it like this.

A/F ratio, that is an AMOUNT of air over an AMOUNT of fuel. Raw data/Raw data.

We are talking about an air fuel ratio, that is how you tune your car. Since the progam you use will control the fuel side of things for you, we will talk about air.

Boost affects how much air goes in. So does temperature. So we can say that the amount of air going in is a function of not only the boost, but also the temperature. The more you compress the air (think about rubbing things together) the hotter it gets.


And finally, we are talking about a mass of air. Now pressure (boost) and temperature affect a mass of air. If your only talking about pressure and temperature your not defining how much air. The actual size and shape of the turbine dictate how much volume of air it will flow. Then you controll how much it will pressurize said volume, and that dictates the mass.

So now you know that a t25 can indeed make the same power as a sc61 so long as the cfm rates are the same. And because of what we just learned, if an t25 and an sc61 were flowing the same mass of air they would NOT be at the same boost levels, and the air would probably be different temperatures.

gser67

thanks for all the replys guys. im really excited to get this project underway... too bad i gotta wait until spring MN winters arent too fun. i think the city should pay me for all the snow plowing i do around town. oh yeah supposed to get 7-8 inches tonight-tomorrow. should be good for snowboarding at least.

keep all the suggestions coming....sounds like a t3/t4 is more the style turbo im looking for...that way i wont have to upgrade right away.

what manifolds do you guys recommend? and does anyone know of a good place on the web to find some good deals...i think ill check out the HT sponsors when i get back from work tonight.