alex_s817

Im not sure if this is the correct place for this so mods please move if necessary.

Alright so i am writing a paper for a final exam and the topic is E85 fuel. The question is whether or not the effort to switch the entire country to E85 fuel is worth it. As of right now, my point is no, not as whole. I think that for vehicles like our own, the stuff is great, but for most regular vehicles, its not worth it.

I was hoping you guys could give me some input in either direction, for or against my point because anything will help. Information on the burning properties of E85 would really help, as would anything else. If you guys are not interested I understand, thanks anyway. My reason for asking is I need to have 7-9 pages of information. I feel i will sound repetitive if I do not get some new insight and ideas. Links to other sites help too.
Thanks everyone

-Alex

96 GSR-T

The future of Ethanol at the moment looks grim, with gas so cheap its hard for Ethanol to keep up. If gas falls to $1 a gal like some people say it could possibly do, Alternative Energy sources are going to suffer tremendously, Gas wont stay that cheap forever but it will delay research into Bio-Fuels and other Alternative Energy sources.

Cellulosic Ethanol will eventually replace Corn-Based Ethanol, but until that time if there isnt around a 30-40% difference between the price of Gas and Ethanol, its not really worth using it unless it is for a performance application or your a hardcore enviromental junky.

What do you mean by the burn properties? Here is a link http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php/topic,1893.0.html comparing Ethanol/Methanol and Gasoline flame speed vs a/f mixture, the chart is at the bottom, there is a nice E85 thread in this forum, other than that the net is a good source for all the info you need.

alex_s817

wow thanks a lot. very helpful. by burn properties, someone told me once that it burns differently(hotter or colder i dont know) i thought hotter would be better but i also remember them saying something about engines running cooler when using it? I have been looking on the forums as well, but my main problem is i have to supply the sources which MUST be "scholarly" and unbiased. thanks again
-Alex

96 GSR-T

It burns cooler than gasoline, something like 200deg hotter than Methanol. It wont make your coolant temps any different, I did notice a drop in EGT temperature. Methanol on the other hand makes your engine run cooler, I use to know a guy with a blown big block using the stuff and you could see his blower case sweating from the Methanol, it was almost cool to the touch.

redboost10

one thing i have noticed from reading and all is it takes two times the amount of energy to make e85 than it gives off...

tony413

lol because gasoline is still used in the production process and its still mixed with the ethanol.

redboost10

thats not what i was meaning but yeah

nowtype

E85 can work. Look at Brazil. Yes they can grow sugar incredibly easily which is fantastic for making ethanol, but we can grow a number of other crops that could work very well. Corn is just a terrible choice. The easiest argument to make is that ethanol is a viable solution for the US assuming we are willing to switch to a different crop and understand it is an interim solution because as population grows, we will not be able to sacrifice using land to grow crops to make ethanol when we will need the land for food and shelter.

redboost10

speaking of corn, i work at a processing plant in the northwest. this season we seen a 30% decrease in the amount of crops coming into the plant, but the amount of acreage for corn increased 10%, haha. i wonder where its all going...

alex_s817

thanks for all the help guys

91civicDXdude

Not true at all. Most of the "net negative" energy studies were done in the late 70s and early 80s, ethanol production technology has come a long way since then. Modern facilities are seeing 15-30% energy gain, and only using 2-3 gallons of water for each gallon of ethanol. Petroleum refining on the other hand uses upwards of 12 gallons of gallons for each gallon of gasoline.

As far as land use patterns, 2007 and 2008 were the largest corn crops on record. Only about 30% of the US corn crop goes towards ethanol production, with the rest going for animal feed, corn byproducts like corn oil, tortillas, and other human consumption meal products. There is no shortage of corn, regardless of what the propaganda machine tries to make people think, and most of the corn that does go to ethanol was diverted away from animal feed, not human food. A side product of ethanol production is Dried Distiller's Grains, which is a very high quality feed product with more protein than cracked corn and at less of a cost to the farmer. There are also plants that produce human corn food products, ethanol, distiller's grains, corn oil, and corn fiber from the same kernel of corn, i.e. no corn is diverted away from people or animals to make ethanol.

There are new strains of corn plant that have been genetically modified to contain Alpha Amylase enzyme, (an ingredient used in ethanol production, it breaks down the corn's starch to sugar so it can be converted to ethanol), which reduces cost and energy input initially. Farm technology is also making great headway in increasing the bushel yield per acre of corn, increasing our yearly crop without the need for more land.

Cellulosic. Its branded as the savior to the ethanol industry, but honestly it is not economical to convert biomass to ethanol with current technologies, although progress is steadily being made. One downside to cellulosic technology is that it can potentially cause ground erosion problems from farmers cutting plant stalks off too close to the ground to get top dollar for their crop waste. Another downside is the amount of biomass needed to run a commercial scale plant. Granted, switch grass and other potential crops can grow on otherwise useless land, but the sheer scale of raw materials needed is a problem in itself.

The bottom line is that ethanol is not the sole solution to the energy crisis, and the industry has never claimed it was. With current capacity we can only hope to replace 15-20% of imported oil, which doesn't sound like much, but every little bit helps. The answer lies in biofuels like ethanol and bio diesel, butanol, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, hybrid technology, an auto industry held to stricter fuel economy standards, and most important of all, CONSERVATION.

The ethanol industry is moving from its young stage into adult hood, and sure there will be rocky paths ahead, but its here to stay. The market for ethanol as a gasoline oxidizer additive is strong, flex fuel vehicle production is rising every day, and as I'm sure you know, the car performance market is in love with E85.

redboost10

i was not saying that there is a shortage of corn, i was just stating some facts that we noticed in the northwest about the usage of acreage to grow the different types of corn.

hydrogen fuel cells is a whole different story, there is something going on there for sure.

93CX

Fascinating thread.. Now I feel like I know enough to write an essay on E85