well i was thinkg about it i dont think its possable so that kills what i was thinking about. im just going to get what is needed and then turbo it. thanks for everyones help

 

Research before buying.
Buying a bare block sucks, unless you get it for real cheap. Do you have any idea what all the little stuff adds up to? What engine management are you going with? 2.5 liters is not possible in a b-series without stroking. Just be sure that you know What you are getting into before you buy. Are you building the motor yourself or having someone else do it. If you are not doing it yourself budget a lot of money for labor, as you will have to have it rebuilt driving on 18psi daily, no matter what block you use. Budget for 55 gallon drums of race gas too. There are so many expenses that I don't know if you have considered. DO MORE RESEARCH.

 

yeha i know im doing research. Im going to keep it as 2.0

 

How much compression and what type of fuel do you plan to run to push 18 pounds daily.

Now, are darts honda blocks just the bare block, or are they a shortblock?

 

If it's just the block for 1600, you don't need it. If dart builds their bare honda blocks ANYTHING like they build their V8 blocks, you do not need it.

 

they are bare blocks

 

what is wrong with Dart stuff?

 

If I was going to spend $1,000 on sleeving my stock block. Why not spend $1,000 more and get a dart block. Then transfer all other parts from the b-series into the dart. (Crank, Oil, water pumps, ect...)

 

It's also sleeved with Darton Sleeves.

 

they are great blocks. If you already have the accessories to put on the bare block then it is great. i dont think that some people realize the cost of oil pumps, water pumps, and all the misc. stuff that you have to buy. I do think however that dart blocks may be a bit overkill for daily driving. A stock block with sleeves is fine even if you want to boost 18 psi daily.

 

I'm just looking at the Dart compared to a deckplated/sleeved B18C. I have all the little parts, just have to get a B20A5 (95mm) crank and rods (getting anyway).
The tall Dart block is $1950, minus whatever I can sell my B18C block for, which turns out to be a decent deal compared to a sleeving/deckplate setup.

Ben

 

acutally i called up Payne Tech and i talked to a guy about the block and he said you could run the block as a daily driver and that the 2.0 blocks are on back order til the end of the month. Oh yeha they come sleveed so all you have to do is get it honed and then just drop your rods and pistons. So i think im going to order one and see how these blocks work out.

 

I am trying to sell my GE sleeved 84.5mm b16 block and I will be able to get one.

 

The dart block will be overkill for anything less then 1000 hp.. you will be fine with a GE short block for 2800 new or a dart block for that ? do the math if your nor gonna need 1000 hp than dont go through the effort?? just my .02

 

Dart block (actually a payn block) is for racing. Anything else and you're wasting your money. For less money you can get an Ls block with GE Godzilla sleeves, and the stacked deck if you choose so, and still have the head and everything already. Those Godzilla sleeves FYI can handle 60psi of boost with 8:1 compression. [(60psi/14.7psi)+1]8=40.8 That's an effective compression of 40.8:1. More than any tubo can put out. Trust me the Dart block would only be good if you need torsionally rigidity of the block like under rallying conditions, or full race where then entire car is tied together around the engine. Not to mention the Dart block still require's some machining before you can even use it. Go with the Honda block, and some good sleeves you'll be happier with the money for a big, fat, hairy turbo.

 

Nothing beats a stock honda block. And plus if you dont have the other parts of the block(main caps, crank, and other misc parts), then you are going to spend so much money on them. And even if you have the parts from another block why spend the extra 1000 dollars on the dart block when you get sleeves for half the price.

If it's for the street then sleeve a stock block. If you are a race team and you don't have time to waste, and have a lot of money to waste then go for the dart blocks, as b-series blocks are becoming rare.


HTH

 

I guess the main attraction is that you don't have to worry about something going wrong during sleeving/decking/deckplating. Deckplating/sleeving runs in the range of $1600, going the extra $350 for a block that hasn't been stressed by sleeving and is a stronger design isn't too much of a stretch.

 

Is the Dart block legal in all Nhra classes now?

 

You make a good point there.

 

Here are current pictures of the block.



The blocks retail for $1,995.00 and include sleeves and billet main caps. We currently have small bore standard bore blocks instock. If you are running boost, I would recommend an 83mm bore. We are also offering assembled short blocks.


Originally posted by tzsir
================================================== ===
"Dart block (actually a payn block) is for racing. Anything else and you're wasting
your money. For less money you can get an Ls block with GE Godzilla sleeves,
and the stacked deck if you choose so, and still have the head and everything
already. Those Godzilla sleeves FYI can handle 60psi of boost with 8:1
compression. [(60psi/14.7psi)+1]8=40.8 That's an effective compression of
40.8:1. More than any tubo can put out. Trust me the Dart block would only be
good if you need torsionally rigidity of the block like under rallying conditions, or
full race where then entire car is tied together around the engine. Not to mention
the Dart block still require's some machining before you can even use it. Go with
the Honda block, and some good sleeves you'll be happier with the money for a
big, fat, hairy turbo. "
================================================== ===

We have sold numerous blocks for street use... actually most of the people that are interested are running them on the street. People keep forgetting or never new that there is a lot more to a block than the strength of the sleeves. I have seen 400 HP engines pick-up 25HP by just changing to a better block. You guys need to learn that the major weakness in the block is the main webbing, and that when you sleeve a block you weaken the main webbing even more. When the block flexes it binds the crank and stresses/distorts the sleeves.

Once some of you have built/rebuilt enough engines, you will start to see trends in bearing wear on the stock Honda blocks even when you are only making 300HP. This wear is due to the main webbing moving. You will also notice that most blocks that have been sleeved need to be line honed since the webs moved when they press the sleeves in. I am not saying sleeving is bad, I am just saying that people need to understand a little more about what an engine is going through making 500HP at 9,000RPM.

I have had more people that have aready run sleeves in an engine buy the block than anyone else. I think that really says something.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Thanks,

Tom





[Modified by Payntech, 8:01 PM 2/3/2003]

 

Two questions- why didn't you girdle the main caps a la D series? I understand that the block much stronger, but why not go all out?
Also- is it alright to run 84.5mm on boost? What is the potential downside?

Thanks
Ben

 

look at the main caps, thats why a girdle wasnt neccesary.

 

IM thinking of buying one this month. I have no problem trrying it out. But if something breaks or happenes would you cover it or help me out some how?

 

Wow thanks for replying to us. Good man.

I knew all that already, but I was using the cost for the basis on my arguement. With the economy the way it is currently not everyone can afford that block. I wish I could though.

What kind of grain structure could I expect when I get one? Is it in line or just like a cast piece. I remember reading it was extruded so I was just curious as to which way the grain flows. I may be wrong, but I could have sworn it was extruded. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Also how do you account for the different expansion rates of the two different alloys, when using a Honda head?

I'm sure you could add a girdle for re-assurance though.





[Modified by tzsir, 9:11 PM 2/3/2003]

 

I have ran into a problem with a friends car that im building. Were trying to put all the power down possable without braking anything. Im talken all the boost the motor can take. The guy is super hardcore and wants to take it to the max. here the setup so far:
Head:
98 GSR
Complete port and polish by JG
Crower retainers
Crower valve springs
Ferra oversized valves
JG intake
JG Throttle body
JG cams
JG light speed cam gears
Cometic head gasket "did not work"
AEM fuel rail
Taylor Plug wires
DSM 450cc injectors
B&M fuel pressure regulator

Block:
B20
Golden Eagle sleeves with o-rings
84.5 mm Bore
Endyn Rollerwave Turbo Pistons 9:1
Crower rods
ACL Complete bearing set
Gsr water pump
Gsr oil pump
Unorthodox under drive pulley

Transmission:
GSR tranny
Quaife ATB LSD
Honda saver Stage 3 custom clutch
JUN flywheel

The guy purchased the block with out to much knowledge and come to find out the block was milled 30 over before the sleeves were put in and then 20over after to o-ring it- and the another 20 to get more of the steal oring above the top of the deck for better sealing. This is all what the old owner told use after the guy had purchased it. So now he has like 10 grand in this motor, there much more parts that i didnot list) and his block is junk. The groove that the rings sits in is not even at all and is not deep enough and the block has been milled so much that the pistons come over the block 40 thousanths. So its time for a new block. So the guy is mad as i would be to for the bum deal he got on his motor and he tell me i want it all. Build it the best and the strongest you can. I want the best money can buy I have went this far why stop now. At first he has been looking at 500bucks for a b18b Local as he wants to see what he buys this time and not get screwed pluss the money for the godzilla sleeves ore darton sleeves. So im gonna sugest to him he go for the big boy and get the dart. The only thing im not sure of is at what hp do you really need o-rings? I can stand them personally. But i never see pictures of dart blocks with then. So is it needed at all? thanks for listening guys