D series torque VS B series curves
09-28-2006, 06:23 PM
#1
D series torque VS B series curves
I saw a post someone posted some comparisants of some 300whp d series vs 300 whp b series and there torque curves. I know the d series makes alot more then the B series.
Anyone post up some comparisons?
Anyone post up some comparisons?
09-30-2006, 08:56 AM
#3
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Re: D series torque VS B series curves (JDMCRX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMCRX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I saw a post someone posted some comparisants of some 300whp d series vs 300 whp b series and there torque curves. I know the d series makes alot more then the B series.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not all B's are the same. That's probably the case with the B18C's, but the torque curve of a B18A/B making 300whp would kick the D-series' ***.
Not all B's are the same. That's probably the case with the B18C's, but the torque curve of a B18A/B making 300whp would kick the D-series' ***.
09-30-2006, 10:49 AM
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Re: D series torque VS B series curves (Weston)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weston »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not all B's are the same. That's probably the case with the B18C's, but the torque curve of a B18A/B making 300whp would kick the D-series' ***.</TD></TR></TABLE>
.... i dunno about that, aren't B18A/B's and the D16A6/Z6/Y8 the same stroke?
.... i dunno about that, aren't B18A/B's and the D16A6/Z6/Y8 the same stroke?
09-30-2006, 10:52 AM
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Not all B's are the same. That's probably the case with the B18C's, but the torque curve of a B18A/B making 300whp would kick the D-series' ***.
HAHAHAHA yeah right
http://www.imagehosting.us/ind...41549
HAHAHAHA yeah right
http://www.imagehosting.us/ind...41549
09-30-2006, 01:52 PM
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Re: D series torque VS B series curves (njn63)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by njn63 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
.... i dunno about that, aren't B18A/B's and the D16A6/Z6/Y8 the same stroke?</TD></TR></TABLE>
D16's actually have a slightly longer stroke, but that's obviously not the only thing that shapes it's powerband. You also have to consider the fact that the B18A/B is larger, has different cams, head, manifolds, and so on. That's really besides the point though... The reason that a 300whp B18A/B will usually have a better torque curve than a 300whp D16, and especially a 300whp B18C, is because the B18A/B is under-cammed, so it's powerband is around 4500-5500 RPM, and it's power really drops off after 6000 RPM... Because of that, it's peak HP is not much higher than it's peak torque, so in order to get 300whp out of it, you're going to have to have a lot of torque; it's not like a B18C where you can have a wimpy 190 ft-lbs of torque and still make 280 HP.
Simply put, a 300whp LS will own the others in a torque curve comparision because it takes more torque (and more boost or other mods) to get 300whp out of a LS. So, there's really no value in comparing the torque curves of these motors based on peak WHP being equal.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quicksilver1689 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">HAHAHAHA yeah right
http://www.imagehosting.us/ind...41549</TD></TR></TABLE>
HAHAHAHA link doesn't work
.... i dunno about that, aren't B18A/B's and the D16A6/Z6/Y8 the same stroke?</TD></TR></TABLE>
D16's actually have a slightly longer stroke, but that's obviously not the only thing that shapes it's powerband. You also have to consider the fact that the B18A/B is larger, has different cams, head, manifolds, and so on. That's really besides the point though... The reason that a 300whp B18A/B will usually have a better torque curve than a 300whp D16, and especially a 300whp B18C, is because the B18A/B is under-cammed, so it's powerband is around 4500-5500 RPM, and it's power really drops off after 6000 RPM... Because of that, it's peak HP is not much higher than it's peak torque, so in order to get 300whp out of it, you're going to have to have a lot of torque; it's not like a B18C where you can have a wimpy 190 ft-lbs of torque and still make 280 HP.
Simply put, a 300whp LS will own the others in a torque curve comparision because it takes more torque (and more boost or other mods) to get 300whp out of a LS. So, there's really no value in comparing the torque curves of these motors based on peak WHP being equal.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quicksilver1689 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">HAHAHAHA yeah right
http://www.imagehosting.us/ind...41549</TD></TR></TABLE>
HAHAHAHA link doesn't work
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09-30-2006, 02:24 PM
#8
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I never see b18a/b turbos making much if any more torque than D16 Turbos.
Turbo D16Y8 Built with precision turbocharger, dunno the size. Found this dyno chart on turbod16.com
A 300whp D16 will not get owned by an LS with 300whp. Torque would be very similar too a D16.
Turbo D16Y8 Built with precision turbocharger, dunno the size. Found this dyno chart on turbod16.com
A 300whp D16 will not get owned by an LS with 300whp. Torque would be very similar too a D16.
09-30-2006, 03:22 PM
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Re: (quicksilver1689)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quicksilver1689 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I never see b18a/b turbos making much if any more torque than D16 Turbos.
Turbo D16Y8 Built with precision turbocharger, dunno the size. Found this dyno chart on turbod16.com
A 300whp D16 will not get owned by an LS with 300whp. Torque would be very similar too a D16. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not really. The LS torque curve looks nothing like that; it's a hell of a lot fatter and it starts much sooner too. Here's my B18B with a T3 making 236 whp on 9 psi... http://www.turbols.net/cars/we...7.jpg
Here's a little side-by-side comparison of the torque numbers of the 236 whp LS vs the 300 whp D16...
RPM LS D16 Diff
2500 110 105 05
3000 140 115 25
3500 190 125 65
4000 210 140 70
4500 225 175 50
5000 225 230 -05
5500 215 260 -45
6000 205 250 -45
6500 190 240 -50
So, even though the LS only had it's boost turned high enough to make 236 whp, it destroys the 300 whp D16 in torque from 0 to 5000 rpm. Turn the LS'es boost up to make 300 whp and it's not hard to figure out that it will have at least the same amount of torque below 5000 rpm, plus a lot more above 5000.
Turbo D16Y8 Built with precision turbocharger, dunno the size. Found this dyno chart on turbod16.com
A 300whp D16 will not get owned by an LS with 300whp. Torque would be very similar too a D16. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not really. The LS torque curve looks nothing like that; it's a hell of a lot fatter and it starts much sooner too. Here's my B18B with a T3 making 236 whp on 9 psi... http://www.turbols.net/cars/we...7.jpg
Here's a little side-by-side comparison of the torque numbers of the 236 whp LS vs the 300 whp D16...
RPM LS D16 Diff
2500 110 105 05
3000 140 115 25
3500 190 125 65
4000 210 140 70
4500 225 175 50
5000 225 230 -05
5500 215 260 -45
6000 205 250 -45
6500 190 240 -50
So, even though the LS only had it's boost turned high enough to make 236 whp, it destroys the 300 whp D16 in torque from 0 to 5000 rpm. Turn the LS'es boost up to make 300 whp and it's not hard to figure out that it will have at least the same amount of torque below 5000 rpm, plus a lot more above 5000.
09-30-2006, 04:20 PM
#10
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Re: D series torque VS B series curves (JDMCRX)
in the case of a b16 or b18c a 300whp d series is always gonna be making more torque than a 300whp b series. Just simply due to the fact that horsepower is a function of torque and rpm. If the b series takes 8k rpms to make that power then it will simply have less torque.
09-30-2006, 04:34 PM
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Re: D series torque VS B series curves (SOHC_MShue)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">in the case of a b16 or b18c a 300whp d series is always gonna be making more torque than a 300whp b series. Just simply due to the fact that horsepower is a function of torque and rpm. If the b series takes 8k rpms to make that power then it will simply have less torque. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly.
Exactly.
09-30-2006, 05:32 PM
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Re: D series torque VS B series curves (Jeterkm02)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jeterkm02 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wouldn't the size of the turbo and how agressive an ignition have alot to do with this? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup, it sure would. If you want to see what kind of a torque curve you have to worth with for different engines, you're better off just comparing the stock dynos, or at least dynos for the same boost level; doing it based on the same peak whp really doesn't mean much, as I have attempted to illustrate.
Yup, it sure would. If you want to see what kind of a torque curve you have to worth with for different engines, you're better off just comparing the stock dynos, or at least dynos for the same boost level; doing it based on the same peak whp really doesn't mean much, as I have attempted to illustrate.
09-30-2006, 07:26 PM
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Re: (Weston)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weston »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Not really. The LS torque curve looks nothing like that; it's a hell of a lot fatter and it starts much sooner too. Here's my B18B with a T3 making 236 whp on 9 psi... http://www.turbols.net/cars/we...7.jpg
Here's a little side-by-side comparison of the torque numbers of the 236 whp LS vs the 300 whp D16...
RPM LS D16 Diff
2500 110 105 05
3000 140 115 25
3500 190 125 65
4000 210 140 70
4500 225 175 50
5000 225 230 -05
5500 215 260 -45
6000 205 250 -45
6500 190 240 -50
So, even though the LS only had it's boost turned high enough to make 236 whp, it destroys the 300 whp D16 in torque from 0 to 5000 rpm. Turn the LS'es boost up to make 300 whp and it's not hard to figure out that it will have at least the same amount of torque below 5000 rpm, plus a lot more above 5000.</TD></TR></TABLE>
A straight T3 on a B18b will spool way before the Precision SC50 i believe that is being used on the D16y8. Your comparions holds some merit but not a lot. Depending on the turbo being used on both engines the differences between the torque changes.
Not really. The LS torque curve looks nothing like that; it's a hell of a lot fatter and it starts much sooner too. Here's my B18B with a T3 making 236 whp on 9 psi... http://www.turbols.net/cars/we...7.jpg
Here's a little side-by-side comparison of the torque numbers of the 236 whp LS vs the 300 whp D16...
RPM LS D16 Diff
2500 110 105 05
3000 140 115 25
3500 190 125 65
4000 210 140 70
4500 225 175 50
5000 225 230 -05
5500 215 260 -45
6000 205 250 -45
6500 190 240 -50
So, even though the LS only had it's boost turned high enough to make 236 whp, it destroys the 300 whp D16 in torque from 0 to 5000 rpm. Turn the LS'es boost up to make 300 whp and it's not hard to figure out that it will have at least the same amount of torque below 5000 rpm, plus a lot more above 5000.</TD></TR></TABLE>
A straight T3 on a B18b will spool way before the Precision SC50 i believe that is being used on the D16y8. Your comparions holds some merit but not a lot. Depending on the turbo being used on both engines the differences between the torque changes.
09-30-2006, 07:58 PM
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Re: (Weston)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weston »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not really. The LS torque curve looks nothing like that; it's a hell of a lot fatter and it starts much sooner too. Here's my B18B with a T3 making 236 whp on 9 psi... http://www.turbols.net/cars/we...7.jpg
Here's a little side-by-side comparison of the torque numbers of the 236 whp LS vs the 300 whp D16...
RPM LS D16 Diff
2500 110 105 05
3000 140 115 25
3500 190 125 65
4000 210 140 70
4500 225 175 50
5000 225 230 -05
5500 215 260 -45
6000 205 250 -45
6500 190 240 -50
So, even though the LS only had it's boost turned high enough to make 236 whp, it destroys the 300 whp D16 in torque from 0 to 5000 rpm. Turn the LS'es boost up to make 300 whp and it's not hard to figure out that it will have at least the same amount of torque below 5000 rpm, plus a lot more above 5000.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I dunno about you, but I fall to about 5K when I shift...
I think this is why I keep seeing similar WHP B16s and B18Cs run slower times on the track compared to their similarly rated Ds and LSs. The long stroke "inferior" engines need more torque to make the same WHP, and thus will run a bit of a better time due to torque advantage.
Just an observation.
Here's a little side-by-side comparison of the torque numbers of the 236 whp LS vs the 300 whp D16...
RPM LS D16 Diff
2500 110 105 05
3000 140 115 25
3500 190 125 65
4000 210 140 70
4500 225 175 50
5000 225 230 -05
5500 215 260 -45
6000 205 250 -45
6500 190 240 -50
So, even though the LS only had it's boost turned high enough to make 236 whp, it destroys the 300 whp D16 in torque from 0 to 5000 rpm. Turn the LS'es boost up to make 300 whp and it's not hard to figure out that it will have at least the same amount of torque below 5000 rpm, plus a lot more above 5000.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I dunno about you, but I fall to about 5K when I shift...
I think this is why I keep seeing similar WHP B16s and B18Cs run slower times on the track compared to their similarly rated Ds and LSs. The long stroke "inferior" engines need more torque to make the same WHP, and thus will run a bit of a better time due to torque advantage.
Just an observation.
10-01-2006, 07:53 AM
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Re: (Weston)
heres my last dyno on my 81mm lsvtec with a t3 60-1
here's my ls turbo dyno, stock motor 57 trim t3t4
now heres an lsvtec with the same t3t4 57 trim as the above ls graph. this was done on 7 psi, the ls dyno was done on 10. both have almost exact peak tq numbers, but the peak hp on the vtec was more.
unfortunately i didnt get to dyno my z6 turbo because it was stolen only a few weeks after i got it running.
at the same hp the ls and d16 will be close in tq numbers, but the ls will hit that power level at a few psi less (generally) .
the vtec motors (b series) will make close to the same tq numbers at a certain psi, but the hp will be more, due to the additional rpms. this is something ive noticed over time, im not saying its 100% true all the time.
there are way to many variables at work here to get a straight answer on this..bore,stroke,head,turbo,pressure ratio,timing, blablabla.
oh yea, another thing i didnt say yet is the gearing with the trans. quite honestly, who cares about making low end tq if your trans always keeps you in the high rpms. having power in rpms you are never at is pointless. **ie why have lots of hp/tq at 4k rpms in a b16 when you are cruising at 5k or coming back into gear at 5500 after shifting while racing.** to me thats an improperly matched setup. same thing with a d16, it should be set up for more midrange power, the gears are rather long and the car drops down to 4500 when shifting, so youd need the power/tq there rather than all at 7500rpms
here's my ls turbo dyno, stock motor 57 trim t3t4
now heres an lsvtec with the same t3t4 57 trim as the above ls graph. this was done on 7 psi, the ls dyno was done on 10. both have almost exact peak tq numbers, but the peak hp on the vtec was more.
unfortunately i didnt get to dyno my z6 turbo because it was stolen only a few weeks after i got it running.
at the same hp the ls and d16 will be close in tq numbers, but the ls will hit that power level at a few psi less (generally) .
the vtec motors (b series) will make close to the same tq numbers at a certain psi, but the hp will be more, due to the additional rpms. this is something ive noticed over time, im not saying its 100% true all the time.
there are way to many variables at work here to get a straight answer on this..bore,stroke,head,turbo,pressure ratio,timing, blablabla.
oh yea, another thing i didnt say yet is the gearing with the trans. quite honestly, who cares about making low end tq if your trans always keeps you in the high rpms. having power in rpms you are never at is pointless. **ie why have lots of hp/tq at 4k rpms in a b16 when you are cruising at 5k or coming back into gear at 5500 after shifting while racing.** to me thats an improperly matched setup. same thing with a d16, it should be set up for more midrange power, the gears are rather long and the car drops down to 4500 when shifting, so youd need the power/tq there rather than all at 7500rpms
10-01-2006, 10:12 AM
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Re: (SovXietday)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SovXietday »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dunno about you, but I fall to about 5K when I shift... </TD></TR></TABLE>
I do as well. My powerband is pretty much wasted for drag racing, because I only really hit the sweet spot in 1st gear, then miss most of it in the other gears when shifting at redline (I have a GS-R tranny). But for road course racing, which is what this car is built for, it's perfect because I hit the sweet spot right at corner exit.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SovXietday »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think this is why I keep seeing similar WHP B16s and B18Cs run slower times on the track compared to their similarly rated Ds and LSs. The long stroke "inferior" engines need more torque to make the same WHP, and thus will run a bit of a better time due to torque advantage.
Just an observation.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup, and that's the point I was making earlier in this thread.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the vtec motors (b series) will make close to the same tq numbers at a certain psi, but the hp will be more, due to the additional rpms. this is something ive noticed over time, im not saying its 100% true all the time.
there are way to many variables at work here to get a straight answer on this..bore,stroke,head,turbo,pressure ratio,timing, blablabla.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a valid statement. I've seen the same.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh yea, another thing i didnt say yet is the gearing with the trans. quite honestly, who cares about making low end tq if your trans always keeps you in the high rpms. having power in rpms you are never at is pointless. **ie why have lots of hp/tq at 4k rpms in a b16 when you are cruising at 5k or coming back into gear at 5500 after shifting while racing.** to me thats an improperly matched setup. same thing with a d16, it should be set up for more midrange power, the gears are rather long and the car drops down to 4500 when shifting, so youd need the power/tq there rather than all at 7500rpms</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're right. If you're a drag racer, there's no use in having your powerband be any lower than the RPM that you'll drop to after you shift at redline. If you're a road course racer, you'll usually want it a little lower than that so that you're in it at corner exit, which is when good acceleration is most valuable. And either way, the earlier you hit your powerband, the faster you'll be.
I do as well. My powerband is pretty much wasted for drag racing, because I only really hit the sweet spot in 1st gear, then miss most of it in the other gears when shifting at redline (I have a GS-R tranny). But for road course racing, which is what this car is built for, it's perfect because I hit the sweet spot right at corner exit.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SovXietday »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think this is why I keep seeing similar WHP B16s and B18Cs run slower times on the track compared to their similarly rated Ds and LSs. The long stroke "inferior" engines need more torque to make the same WHP, and thus will run a bit of a better time due to torque advantage.
Just an observation.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup, and that's the point I was making earlier in this thread.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the vtec motors (b series) will make close to the same tq numbers at a certain psi, but the hp will be more, due to the additional rpms. this is something ive noticed over time, im not saying its 100% true all the time.
there are way to many variables at work here to get a straight answer on this..bore,stroke,head,turbo,pressure ratio,timing, blablabla.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a valid statement. I've seen the same.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blackeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh yea, another thing i didnt say yet is the gearing with the trans. quite honestly, who cares about making low end tq if your trans always keeps you in the high rpms. having power in rpms you are never at is pointless. **ie why have lots of hp/tq at 4k rpms in a b16 when you are cruising at 5k or coming back into gear at 5500 after shifting while racing.** to me thats an improperly matched setup. same thing with a d16, it should be set up for more midrange power, the gears are rather long and the car drops down to 4500 when shifting, so youd need the power/tq there rather than all at 7500rpms</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're right. If you're a drag racer, there's no use in having your powerband be any lower than the RPM that you'll drop to after you shift at redline. If you're a road course racer, you'll usually want it a little lower than that so that you're in it at corner exit, which is when good acceleration is most valuable. And either way, the earlier you hit your powerband, the faster you'll be.
10-01-2006, 05:41 PM
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Re: (S@nt0s)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by S@nt0s »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">all i gotta say is ill take a 300whp LS-T or 300Whp SOHC over a GSR/B16 anyday.... 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh u know it
</TD></TR></TABLE>Oh u know it
10-02-2006, 09:07 PM
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Re: (Dc4turbo408)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dc4turbo408 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
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