K7-1Ktrevor

topic is problably beating to death worse then the whats the best exhaust for my gsxr 600 on the gixxer forum, but hell Ill ask any ways.

so I have been searching through the first million pages of SOHC build threads, but I have a full time job.

right now as my car sits this is the setup:
1993 honda civic ex coupe
engine internals..... unknown
d16z6
walbro 255lph
AEM adjustable cam gear
cast manifold
dsm 450's with resistor box
open down pipe, exits out the front bumper
flea-bay turbo I think its a .50 trim, smokes alot
fleabay intercooler and wastegate
"facetuned" ecu (don't know a damn thing about it"
leaky cam seal
broken bolt for valve cover

currently running 12lbs with out any issues, car runs good, timing is retarded all the way, havent messed with it since I got the car


I just picked up a complete rebuilt y8 head for it, mani, brand new IAC valve... etc. looks pretty.


what Im wondering is which head flows better z6 or Y8, also is there a compression difference between the two?


I want to have the car tuned, but want to have everything to have the car adjusted while IM there. I dont know anything about the ECU so any info would be great, I searched and couldn't find jack for it

shooting for 250-270whp

any one recomend a good cam? bisimoto or zex...


any input except "use the search button" would be greatly appreciated, send me your adress and I will mail you a thank you card.

mike93eh2

z6 supposedly flows better... but i hate y8 heads because of their wierd timing. id stick with a z6 head

Foowee

Feel the short turn of the intake ports on the y8 head with your finger... then you tell me which flows better. The y8 head will give you higher compression.

RC000E

The Y8's had offset ports in order to impart swirl for clean burn at low rpm. The z6's had more of a tumble oriented port, which allowed them to outflow the Y8 on the top end. The Y8's have better chambers because of the quench area, but the Z6 can be modded to match it, there's nothing you can do about the Y8's ports though.

There's no question the Z6 head is better if your after forced induction power.


Modified by RC000E at 9:29 AM 4/1/2008

K7-1Ktrevor

is it worth it to throw on the y8 manifold?


thanks for the info on the head, it was exactly what I needed.

Joseph Davis

Avoid anything Y8.

Crower stage 2 turbo cam is GOD. Unported D16Z6, 9:1 CR, Skank2 Pro IM, Dave Callahan mini-ram, GT28RS, 12-12.5 psi:



(That was after she was cooled... only makes a repeatable 295-297 once heatsoaked. Don't tell anybody though, losing 10 whp might ruin my street cred)

Fun car, almost sucked the turbo almost dry off of wastegate.


All that aside, I'd trust Bisi's offerings merely based off of what he's done. I imagine he knows how to design a D-series cam as well as anybody.

K7-1Ktrevor

some nice numbers. I think Im sitting right around 180-190 as of right now,

any idea's on the timing issue? mine is all the way retarded. I dont know why, and dont want to mess anything up. should I have it tuned and have my tuner deal with it?

HiProfile

If you want name-brand (or find it used), get the comp/zex stg2 cam. Bisi cams have done over 150whp on a 1.5L, which is pretty crazy all things considered. Then there's his 9-second sohc... The Z6 head has proved its one of the best d-heads out there (you can run a much more streetable 'crazy' cam due to vt@k), and there have been several 300-400whp stock-head D16Z6's created. The crower example is a good one, considering its only at 12psi and pushing the turbo beyond what most SR20 guys think is possible on a 2.0L.

I'm curious what you mean by all the way retarded. The *only* way IMO to tune a turbo'd Honda is to sync the timing with the idle section of the map (16* usually), then use only the ignition maps to retard timing for boost. If the distributor isn't close to the center of it's adjustment range, there is a problem. You may not want to change things, but I'm sure you're loosing out on quite a bit of HP and throttle response if you're running far more timing retard than you need. You're also close to burning your valves...

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the distributor isn't close to the center of it's adjustment range, there is a problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please don't tune or give out advice for any D16Y until you can quit ASSuming things for what are obviously unfamiliar engines to you. If you don't know the engine/system like the back of your hand then couch your responses in those terms, and better yet suck up your pride and ask salient questions. We are all n00bs at something, including me, what seperates us individually from the run of the mill idiots is our ability to define realistic limits of our knowledge and it is always the limit of our experience.

I deleted the 11 pages of Y8 timing whining and failure to understand basic concepts idiocity on pgmfi.org three years ago. In all honesty all my attempts to explain the situation on pgmfi.org and here on HT benefited 1% of the Y8 owners asking for an answer, and all of those who understood what I said were bright enough to have it figured out on their own without me. I'd point you towards it, if it still existed, because you are bright enough to understand it, but frankly it'd be good for you to figure it out yourself.


Modified by Joseph Davis at 2:05 AM 4/2/2008

K7-1Ktrevor

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Please don't tune or give out advice for any D16Y until you can quit ASSuming things for what are obviously unfamiliar engines to you. If you don't know the engine/system like the back of your hand then couch your responses in those terms, and better yet suck up your pride and ask salient questions. We are all n00bs at something, including me, what seperates us individually from the run of the mill idiots is our ability to define realistic limits of our knowledge and it is always the limit of our experience.

I deleted the 11 pages of Y8 timing whining and failure to understand basic concepts idiocity on pgmfi.org three years ago. In all honesty all my attempts to explain the situation on pgmfi.org and here on HT benefited 1% of the Y8 owners asking for an answer, and all of those who understood what I said were bright enough to have it figured out on their own without me. I'd point you towards it, if it still existed, because you are bright enough to understand it, but frankly it'd be good for you to figure it out yourself.


Modified by Joseph Davis at 2:05 AM 4/2/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>


I dont see a reason for posting that....

there was no positive input that you added so please dont waste your time typeing, unless you have something that will help me figure out what the hell Im doing with my car.


as for the rest of you, thanks for taking time to help me get this thing dialed.

I plan on ordering a cam for it with cam seals I hate the leaky ones I have now!
when I put it in I will red wrinkle finish the valve cover and clean it up alot.


any one have any input on the y8 mani?
Ive had a couple buddies tell me its like the type R mani for single slams (lol)


once I get the cam in it will go off to get tuned.

KENetics1

iTrader: (3)

y8 intake manifold

K7-1Ktrevor

any one else bout the Y8?

93supercoupe

Joseph Davis can be one of ur biggest assests if u listen to him, so be polite even when hes not.

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93supercoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Joseph Davis can be one of ur biggest assests if u listen to him, so be polite even when hes not. </TD></TR></TABLE>

He's great at posting long-winded bouts of useless rhetoric. Good luck trying to extract anything useful from him.

Oh noes! Y8 timing! What do I do?!?!

Because the y8 is some kind of magical engine, right? It somehow defies everything we know about 4 cyl. Honda engines? Give me a break. Oh noes, timing maps based on KS feedback!!1!!1!

Here's a crazy solution: ditch the knock sensor (which won't be utilized on your hacked OBD2 ECU anyway) and build your own maps. I fail to see what is so hard about that. Yet, somehow, the bullshit has spread throughout the entire internet to the extent that people are now claiming the y8 head itself has "timing issues." How exactly does the head have issues? Because the keyway on the cam is slightly offset from the z6 keyway and you're baffled as to why you can't get your Zex 59300 cam to work?

For what it's worth, J. Davis's y8 timing thread never had anything useful posted. Just a lot of his usual incomprehensible pseudo-intellectual ramblings. Don't call him out though, or he'll call us all a bunch of high dollar ****** and go crying back to the poor peoples' forums.

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by K7-1Ktrevor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
any one have any input on the y8 mani?
Ive had a couple buddies tell me its like the type R mani for single slams (lol)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Keep the z6 head, use the y8 manifold. I think everyone will agree on that.

KENetics1

iTrader: (3)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by K7-1Ktrevor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
any one recomend a good cam? bisimoto or zex...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have heard good things about crower stage 2 turbo cam too.

RACEPAK

can anyone tell me whats the code that stamped on a z6 head ?

KENetics1

iTrader: (3)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RACEPAK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">can anyone tell me whats the code that stamped on a z6 head ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

92 Si D16Z6 5sp------- P08-2 (9/2) stamped on RS of code.
93 Si D16Z6 5sp-------P08-4 (9/3) stamped on rs of head
93 EX D16Z6 5spd----- P08-4
93 EX D16Z6 5sp-------P08-3
94 EX D16z6 5 spd---- PO8-2
94 Si D16z6 5sp-------- P08-3
94 EX D16Z6 5sp--------P08-4
94 SI D16z6 5sp -------P08-5

found this in here:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=786093

Joseph Davis

Chill, dude. This is a public thread in a public forum and I'll do what's best for the 250 lurkers + 11 active participants who are reading it. HiProfile needed to hear it. He's a bright guy who hands out a lot of good advice, and asks good questions. People listen to him because of it, and he needs to learn to question what he does and doesn't know before he opens his trap. He's bright enough to be held to that standard, and he's returned the favor by calling me out when I'm not on top of a situation. If you stick around forums more you'll notice the best tech comes out of arguments.

Here, I'll prove it.


You only think that because you're too stupid to understand anything I say. Who are you again, and what have you ever done? Nothing.

Your first error, and sign that you don't know wtf you are talking about - what hacked OBD2 ECU?

Yeah, that's what I've been saying for years. Only I took it a step further and stated based on real world experience what timing to run in the 200-240 whp range (12 degrees for Hondata/Crome/anything with OEM ignition corrections still intact), and pointed out how the Y8 is indifferent to timing (can run Z6-like timing) up to 170-180 whp.


Strike two, again proving you do not know what you are talking about. The problem isn't the keyway on the cam, that's the same as plain old D15 and nothing new or special as the cam goes into alignment with the crank just fine. The problem, fool, is the *** end of the cam has been cut for the distributor drive on the D16 index and from this arises the P2P map confusion; 21 degrees map vs 12 degrees crank pulley is a result of code monkeys performing a data table hack to compensate for a real world production [freak]up - I daresay they saved Honda millions.

When you rotate the distributor nine ******* degrees away from center (+/- whatever amount a witchdoctor combo of milling/decking/headgasket modified that) it throws off the alignment of the TDC sensor in the OBD1 codebase. There goes base timing and injector firing angle. Check the Y8 dist sometime - same internal sensor alignment as a B7.

I guess the solution is to buy a used $800 AEM unit for a cheap SOHC build instead of running a sub-$100 Z6 head? Or maybe you can convince one of the GUI editor authors to fiddle TDC code to accomodate the relatively rare Y8 head builds when they can't wrap their heads around stock ignition corrections molesting timing for half a decade? Okay, sure thing! Everyone is defering to you about how great the Y8 head is, they're running right out to do that.

Again, you are clueless. It wasn't my thread. It was eleven pages of whining other people perpetrated that got real old as I materialised for the last 2.5 pages to tell people to set their goddamn ignition timing and they couldn't get past the distributor not being centered. You are claiming you were there and you obviously didn't understand me, either.

At your current rate of belligerent incomprehension you'll soon remove yourself from this forum Mister 92% And 25 posts. There's a reason I've been allowed to speak as I please for years now whereas you wallow in your own ineptitude and are despised for it. Pay your dues or STFU, no one wants to hear you blather about nothing.

zex_cool

ouch. lmao

a6 head/bisi regrind.

Legion

Indeed.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You only think that because you're too stupid to understand anything I say.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, I think that because you're too arrogant and impatient to adequately explain any of the ideas kicking around inside your head. Following up your poorly presented ideas with random insults benefits no one. Which isn't to say that I don't respect your knowledge and experience, because I do, but I'm certainly not going to kiss your feet after reading your posts and having to sift through the disheveled mess of words looking for actual substance.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Who are you again</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lord of the flies?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and what have you ever done? Nothing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You must have read my wikipedia page. It really doesn't do me any justice


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your first error, and sign that you don't know wtf you are talking about - what hacked OBD2 ECU? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Uh-oh, look out - it's the typo police. We shouldn't have to argue semantics just yet - that's usually reserved for the end of an argument when all relevant points have already been presented.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah, that's what I've been saying for years. Only I took it a step further and stated based on real world experience what timing to run in the 200-240 whp range (12 degrees for Hondata/Crome/anything with OEM ignition corrections still intact), and pointed out how the Y8 is indifferent to timing (can run Z6-like timing) up to 170-180 whp. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Why wouldn't that be common knowledge? The y8 guys are forced to import P28 maps. Open -&gt; import P28 maps -&gt; subtract 4.5* across the board -&gt; turn distributor to match 12* timing...


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...When you rotate the distributor nine ******* degrees away from center... it throws off the alignment of the TDC sensor in the OBD1 codebase. There goes base timing and injector firing angle.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I'll have to dismantle a dizzy to see for myself. I have a hard time believing that the TDC/CYP sensors are "out of alignment" considering that their communication determines the fuel/ignition firing baseline during engine startup (cranking) and my engine fires up immediately (quicker than it did from the factory, and I'm clumsily/half-assily controlling 880cc injectors with a dummy box).


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess the solution is to buy a used $800 AEM unit for a cheap SOHC build instead of running a sub-$100 Z6 head? Or maybe you can convince one of the GUI editor authors to fiddle TDC code to accomodate the relatively rare Y8 head builds when they can't wrap their heads around stock ignition corrections molesting timing for half a decade? Okay, sure thing! Everyone is defering to you about how great the Y8 head is, they're running right out to do that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You could always do what I do - ignore the "problem" entirely and still hit 350whp on 91 octane. Would that be too easy?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Again, you are clueless. It wasn't my thread. It was eleven pages of whining other people perpetrated that got real old as I materialised for the last 2.5 pages to tell people to set their goddamn ignition timing and they couldn't get past the distributor not being centered. You are claiming you were there and you obviously didn't understand me, either.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Yeah yeah, don't get your panties in a twist (again). If you spent half as much time explaining yourself as you do referring to "that one thread that previously existed" then this whole issue would have been put to rest long ago.

I'll admit, I don't remember comprehending what you were "trying" to explain about the 21* timing issue. I wouldn't want to trouble you to post the calculation again though - then you'd have nothing to complain about in the future.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">At your current rate of belligerent incomprehension you'll soon remove yourself from this forum Mister 92% And 25 posts. There's a reason I've been allowed to speak as I please for years now whereas you wallow in your own ineptitude and are despised for it. Pay your dues or STFU, no one wants to hear you blather about nothing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've paid my dues, trust. Dig deep enough and you'll find a great wealth of information contributed by my past 38 usernames. Nobody said the preservation of knowledge on a Honda enthusiast forum would come without a price. Perhaps you've been allowed to roam free because none of the troglodytes on this forum have any idea as to what you're talking about, ever? If a crazy hobo passed by me on the street speaking in tongues, I would most assuredly avoid him too.

Harbor whatever resentment you want, but statistically, my gigantic brain allows me to learn faster than 99% of the world's population. In other words, if I was packed into a room with 99 other people, and you were giving us a lecture, not a single person in that room would have any idea as to what you were talking about. So be smug. Take your esoteric timing knowledge to the grave with you. Must be lonely at the top. Maybe you and Justin Jones can run off and live a long happy life together, free from the inquisitive attacks from droves of belligerent 'tards like me.

Legion

We are not so different. Your level of dissension merely has me one-upped:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is a reason Joseph mother[freak]ing Davis made an abrupt transition from tech-only entity to a HMT GD postwhore. I can not continue to hold hands anymore, the collective incompetence of the Honduh scene overwhelms my ability to contribute anything of merit. My original intent as verbal terrorist on HT was to expose marketing bullshit and illuminate how anyone with a little hard work and perserverence could get the job done - everything I know and everything I learned in my first couple years about Honduh ECUs, EFI, engine theory, etc, is archived on HT and you can sift through my 7000 posts of all tech if you want a JD-Approved answer. I talked about what I was learning at the time like a broken record, you can easily follow the path I did, with me explaining every point along the way in excruciating detail, multiple times over. I posted up all that **** meaning to disseminate information to the masses, a trickle-down effect where everyone takes one or two steps up the food chain due to readily available theory and tech, but that hasn't happened. All I got for my effort is whiners too lazy to netsearch or learn how cars work.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You'd rather keep to yourself, I'd rather thrash people. To each his own I guess. For the rest of you - a glimpse of what was:

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/f...894.0

I never read the actual PGMFI thread, but I imagine it's the same ****. All you can extract from it is how to sync up your dizzy with your timing maps. Hopefully everyone can do that by now. I still don't see the need to discuss P2P maps, considering you can simply import P28 maps and the low timing map won't be lacking.

BTW JD - I'm not sure what your formal findings on the "y8 oiling issues" were, but my own personal digging (and experience I suppose) reveals that running aftermarket rods makes the spun rod bearing issue all but disappear. Although it's still probably easier to blame the oil pump for flowing "less."

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zex_cool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">bisi regrind. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Any empirical evidence supporting your choice? No? That's what I thought. Take your emoticon and GTFO.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J Davis, edited for accuracy/content &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's in the cam gear. You know the 1/2 tooth off piece? That has 38 teeth? 38 teeth into 720 degrees rotation for every complete 360 of the crank? What is that, 9.47 degrees or some ****? The dizzy rides off that 9.47 miscalibration... now you know where 21.75 vs 12.00 degrees comes from. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Been chewin' on this for a while. Can't say that I understand the correlation between the cam timing and distributor timing. The CKP and CYP work in conjunction to basically create a trigger wheel. The CYP pulse represents the missing tooth, indicating cyl. 1 TDC. The CKP outputs 24 pulses per revolution, or 15* per 720 = 7.5* per crankshaft revolution. Can't find a 9.75* figure anywhere.

Twisting the dizzy all the way to the firewall to match the 12* base timing is merely rotating the TDC and CYP pickups. How is this "putting them out of alignment"? The CKP will obviously be unaffected.

K7-1Ktrevor

wow, I wish I had as much spare time as you guys (not trying to be an *** but I work 55-60 hours a week)


would love to hear from some people what cam they recomend, (that they actually run)

car might be going off next week to get tuned when I get paid.

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by K7-1Ktrevor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow, I wish I had as much spare time as you guys (not trying to be an *** but I work 55-60 hours a week)</TD></TR></TABLE>

I work from my computer, all day long. H-t is just a click away... It's horrible.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would love to hear from some people what cam they recomend, (that they actually run)

car might be going off next week to get tuned when I get paid.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The problem is that it's a matter of statistics. You'll get tons of people recommending the Zex 59300 because everyone has it. Who knows if it's better/worse than the Crower cams. None of us actually swap cams and do a back-to-back comparison. I can tell you this - most 400 - 450whp SOHC builds you'll come across use the Zex cam. The highest hp z6 I know of uses a Zex cam:



But again, who's to say which is better. Maybe he's blowing boost out his exhaust valves which is why the thing only makes 250whp by 6k RPMs. I really don't think you can go wrong with either cam. Keep in mind, the Zex cam isn't technically a turbo cam...

Or maybe you could tell Bisi to stop wasting his time breaking records and come back and give us dyno comparisons. Here's the thread you should read:

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

We all got excited because Bisi was talking big, but then he left us hanging (and hasn't posted for 3 weeks). I suppose maybe he doesn't need dyno comparisons when his name/fame alone will move products. Personally, I need more to go on than a few unbacked posts. Bisi may be the d-series god, but does that mean he knows more about cam design than Comp Cams/ Crower?

Come to think of it, Bisi was breaking the SOHC records in 03/04. I bet he was using an off-the-shelf cam back then.


Modified by Legion at 4:36 AM 4/4/2008