slammeddime

I've done a few google searche, but couldn't quite find the answers for certain.

1) are b series cranks really forged steel from the factory? What is their power capacity? I've been told they'll hold near 1000hp at the crank, but some of the threads i was looking in seemed to be very much in jest.

2) are the reman cranks from rock auto any count?i can't really seem to find any info about them.

I'm planning on a gsr bottom end in an ls block,worked over ls head, forged rods/pistons, posted and block guard, shooting for 600 at the flywheel, at 8.5:1 should be roughly 25psi.

Any help/insight is appreciated.

jimbo slice

I personally would not use a crank that has been cut or welded. I have never used a reman crank but as long as its been checked for straightness, didn't need to be cut or welded and has had a micro polish done then it should be fine.

As far as power is concerned, many have pushed the stock crank beyond what the sleeves can handle. I doubt you would exceed the stress point with 600 hp

I don't want to lie to you about the "forging". I've heard they are, and I've heard they are not.

slammeddime

I had not thought of the sleeves being an issue. What is their general "safe"range?

jimbo slice

Far too many variables to give you a definite answer, but there are many stock sleeved cars making 450-500 whp and in some cases 550-600 whp. Mostly depends on how well the engine was machined, assembled and tuned

slammeddime

Well, the set-up I'm going for should net me around a 1.8 rod/stroke ratio, and i plan on doing a real weld in block guard, and posting in addition to the guard. Though after running the numbers, the crank to run the higher ratio would have me needing to push about 30psi to make 600, since it destrokes to a 1.6

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

What MATH are you using here? Where in god's name does a LS crank in a GS-R block destroke the engine to a 1.6?, though using an LS head will make the use of boost pressure more of a necessity to get 600whp

The "rod stroke ratio" nonesense has gotten nuts. Its a theoretical ideal, but that doesn't mean that using the LS crank in the GS-R block won't work flawlessly (if all the precautions are made).

I have this same setup, though I'm using a proper VTEC head. And still running after 5 years. Trust me, rod stroke ratio will not mean a damn thing for the build.

You can't determine that boost pressure without a turbocharger plan of attack.

OneBadTurboCRV

This "build" is the 80's meets the 90's version of the 2000's... I could get into an extremely long discussion about this, but it is pointless here. All you need to understand is this myth was long ago disproved to a degree and the numbers are much wider than they used to be. The rod stroke ratio of any common Honda engine is perfectly fine. You are trying to think so far out of the box that you can no longer see it anymore.

speedjunkie_g35

Why would you not use the ls crank in a ls motor rather than the gsr crank? Personally that makes little sense

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

Your build is full of fail man...

You want an LS crank, so you get the full stroke = extra free power.

Dont use a rock auto crank, Im sure they have been welded and are chineese junk, find a used LS crank and have the machine shop give it a once over.

Rod/stroke ratio means nothing, it is a useless endeveor to spend your time even thinking about it.

Sleeves will be an issue at 600 hp, they will crack eventually, but a stockcrank will be fine for 600 hp.

Forget about the posting/ block gaurd, that is all junk.

Your better off leaving it alone than putting in any kind of block gaurd, but with the power your looking to make, it should really either be sleeved or have a cnc CSS system.

An LS head, worked over or not, is going to make it much more dificult to reach your power goal, your going to need a port job, full valve train, cams, intake manifold etc. It would be much easier with a vtec head to reach that power goal, but it can be done with the LS head.

And 8.5:1 c/r is miserably low, you should really look into going between 9.5:1 and 10:1 c/r

Also your 25 psi magic number, means nothing, pressure is relevant to turbo choice, it takes 30 psi to make 600 hp on X turbo, and 20 psi to make 600 hp on Y turbo...

I think you have some re evaluating to do if you want a successful build here...GL

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

also, what are you using for fuel and fuel system, as well as engine management?

efHondefender

All honda cranks that I have ever seen are forged steel from the factory. Don't use any chinese aftermerket cranks. You can tell if a crank is forged or cast by looking at the parting line. A cast crank will have a very thin parting line where the two halves of the mold cam together and a forged piece will have a wide parting line from the two dies that were used to pound it into shape.

slammeddime

To address first, after i had posted this,i got to looking at other setups, and was hanging out talking to old school guys, and they lead me to believe that for a race motor, rod/stroke was fairly important. so i actually was going for a b16 style crank, with 143mm rods

Second, how is stabilizing the cylinders of an open deck block a bad idea? If there is a real reason, please inform me, but i don't see a logical reason why cylinder stability could be a bad thing.

Third, as far a compression ratio goes, how is 8.5 low for a turbo race motor? A vitera build nets you let than that. I did allot of research, and while most of it came from v8 guys, the general answer i found was that a 1 point drop in compression allows roughly 5psi more boost, which nets more potential power. I felt that 8.5 would still allow me top turn the boost down and street it if i wanted to on nice days.

The management I'm planning right now is a chipped p28 with demon/Neptune. Was planning on running it on e85.

I would rather stick with the ls head and have the valve job done and experiment with the port work and be able to buy multiple heads, for the price of a stock remanned vtec head. It's a lifestyle choice.

Thanks for the info on how to tell the crank. I'll look at the ls crack i have and see.

I may have been thinking too far outside the box, i have a bad habit of trying to be slightly different than every body else that i usually end up trying to reinvent the wheel.

I really would love every ones input. I am by no means an expert, and am always open to learning new things.

OneBadTurboCRV

I know more than my fair share about "V8's"... I assure you, the debate on things like 5.7" rods and 6" rods and all of the strokes has been more than beaten to nothing; let alone big block stuff. The original mode of thinking back in the 60's when I first started racing, has greatly changed over the years. This mode of thought applies mainly to "V" style blocks. There is a reason for this, look at the side load compared to a Inline engine... Zero balance engines are completely different than 60* and 90* engines. You are trying to make something out of nothing.

Your compression numbers are mind numbing at best - especially for a B-series. Again, stop applying V8 "rules" to Honda engines. You clearly haven't driven a Vitara setup to know how much of a turd it is on the street. With the tuning capabilities these day and 93 octane, there is absolutely no reason to go below 10:1 on any Honda. If you have 91, utilize water/meth setups. If you have E85, jump the compression to at least 11:1 if not closer to 14:1 as it works fine. You need to stop applying things like how bad V8 heads are and steel at that.

There is a huge difference between a block guard, and a CNC'd Cylinder Support System. Mainly it is the way it is installed. You can "correctly" install a block guard, but you are better off taking it to somebody with a CNC machine. The accepted "safe" limit on Honda sleeves is 450 whp... it could blow lower or higher, but it will eventually blow if you push them passed 500whp. You goals suggest sleeving the block as your best alternative.

Finding an "old school guy" that knows both worlds pretty well is few and far between. Most rather BS about minute details that don't matter and bench race all day than get their car out of the shed and go racing.

slammeddime

Fair enough. The guys i was talking to build 4 second 1/8 mile cars, but, they deal mostly with v8's, the occasional v6, but honestly don't do anything but drive 4 cylinders.

So i would be wasting my time with a golden eagle guard? What is different about the support system?

Someone mentioned the rockers being an issue on the ls, what is the problem with the rockers? I know they aren't shaft mounted like a d series, but how do they differ from gsr rockers, how do i improve the ls setup?

I'm sorry if i seem like a newb, but this is the first Honda race motor i will have built, and the first b series period. I've rebuilt a could of d series, but only ever swapped pistons, aftermarket cams and they have all been na daily motors, so high boost high powered dual cam motors are new ground for me

slammeddime

Ok,i looked,i see why css is superior. So it looks like sleeves and a css are now on the to do list.

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

You only need one, either CSS or aftermarket sleeves, either will support your hp goals

slammeddime

The couple of threads i read,cnc werx claimed their css to be good for 4-500, but id rather over build the bottom end and know it'll hold together.that way, if i decided to put more to it, it'll hold together, hopefully.

boosted_D

iTrader: (1)

They say that because they are covering their butts as far as warranty stuff goes, they have been used beyond 500 whp with success.

But as far as over building goes, you cant even use the CSS with aftermarket sleeves,it is designed for supporting stock sleeves.

Aftermarket sleeves like GE, Benson etc (there are many) are thicker gauge ductile iron, with side supports already in place, they are proven to 1000+ whp

slammeddime

Ok cool.

So factory ls crank, forged rods and pistons, high compression on e85 with sleeves should be safe for 600hp, on high boost race motor? It will rarely see the streets.

speedjunkie_g35

Sounds a million times better than what was in your first post. I would personally go with a vtec head and I am not a fan of LS/vtec motors. You will spend in the ballpark of $1500 trying to port a LS head to flow as well as a vtec head. The LS head will choke your motor in higer rpms with your power goal

slammeddime

For the ls/vtec swap, if i wanted to use the head, but not the vtec system, would it still require an ls/vtec kit?

speedjunkie_g35

Yes you would. Correct me LSV masters if I am wrong but the kit is primarily the needed items to get oil into the vtec head

SovXietday

Hey, I loved my old Vitara setup. Yes, a complete dog while driving around but throwing 35psi at a stock sleeve engine and just letting it go was good fun.

OneBadTurboCRV

Unless you limit the RPM to about 6,500 RPM MAX, you will destroy the valve train after a short time. I just don't understand why you are "trying to do something different". It has ALL been done. You aren't reinventing a thing on a Honda. All of the logical swaps and builds and even some not very much so, have been done multiple times. Either way, ANY Honda with a 6,500 RPM red line is going to be rather useless. Either spend the money on a LS head or fully utilize a VTEC head.

Schister66

Youre running it on 108 octane equivalent fuel, yet running a RIDICULOUSLY low compression ratio. I would never go less than 9.5:1 ever again, especially on e85.

For example, Muckman is at 13.5:1 on a boosted B series. The V8 guys you're talking to are used to pound-on-rocks technology from the '50s...they have enough displacement to lose some efficiency

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/muckman%92s-integra-high-compression-super-build-3086196/