boostfreak0885

ok, to keep a very long story short here it is......

i had a local engine builder build my d16z6 motor... he mostly deals with big blocks and such but in delaware and where i live there isnt many.....

specs.
d16 with z6 head
scat rods
vitaras
cometic head gasket,
t3 turbo,
chipped p28 from phearable.net
dizzy jumper harness,
780cc injectors with box

first start up after installing new motor it smoked alot... at first i thought it was too much gas but then found out its oil..... no oil in piping or nething... took the motor back to the builder and he took my head off the car and he said i have scars on my cylinder walls from detonation> not too deep(he said i can prolly get away with it).. (this car has never seen the road yet only revving it up and sitting in my driveway.) also before, i paid him to install new valve seals and new valve guides.... there was oil sitting where the exhaust exits the head.. and i take it thats where i was getting my smoke from. he told me that i used the wrong oil in my car... which was 5w30 royal purple.. he told me i should of used diesle oil in a new high perf. engine... and never synthetic... he showed me where my valve guides were loose and where oil was seaping down the valve guides... so pretty much what i paid him to do the first time he never did which was to put new valve guide/seals in... he said they got loose from running way too advanced... which hes the one who put the head on the block and should of set it to TDC.... also this car leaked 0% in a leak down test...and had 160psi comp. acrossed. so what do you guys think about all of this....??????
i really appreciate any input because my car hasnt been running for 3 months...

could bad seals and guides in the head cause alot of smoke... when revving it up...??? and could i detonate without boosting and just by revving it up....??? and about the oil issue...

thanks matt

JaredKaragen

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostfreak0885 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">first start up after installing new motor it smoked alot... at first i thought it was too much gas but then found out its oil..... no oil in piping or nething... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Blue smoke; first off; a fresh motor needs to be warmed up completely, then immideately driven to seat the rings. Hopefully this was done.... Was there enough oil in the car? what _exact_ turbo and what size oil feed line are you running? What flange and if you have a restrictor what size and where is it placed? How much boost? Was your car TUNED? What is your AFR at different places? What plugs are you running; What fuel pump?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostfreak0885 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">took the motor back to the builder and he took my head off the car and he said i have scars on my cylinder walls from detonation&gt; not too deep(he said i can prolly get away with it).. (this car has never seen the road yet only revving it up and sitting in my driveway.)</TD></TR></TABLE>
This sounds like the motor may have overheated or not been broken in properly. If you free rev the motor too much int he wrong way befoe it's broken in, you can damage your motor.

Post pics of these things.....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostfreak0885 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">also before, i paid him to install new valve seals and new valve guides.... there was oil sitting where the exhaust exits the head.. and i take it thats where i was getting my smoke from.</TD></TR></TABLE>
if your rings are gone, there was probably oil going out your exhaust...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostfreak0885 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">he told me that i used the wrong oil in my car... which was 5w30 royal purple.. he told me i should of used diesle oil in a new high perf. engine... and never synthetic... he showed me where my valve guides were loose and where oil was seaping down the valve guides...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Initial break in (first 500-2,000 miles) run regular dino oil. Then you can switch to synthetic; it's better in the long run.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostfreak0885 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so pretty much what i paid him to do the first time he never did which was to put new valve guide/seals in... he said they got loose from running way too advanced... which hes the one who put the head on the block and should of set it to TDC.... also this car leaked 0% in a leak down test...and had 160psi comp. acrossed. so what do you guys think about all of this....??????
i really appreciate any input because my car hasnt been running for 3 months... </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostfreak0885 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">could bad seals and guides in the head cause alot of smoke... when revving it up...??? and could i detonate without boosting and just by revving it up....??? and about the oil issue...</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes and no; Having your cylinder walls scared up before the car has seen the road definately means something was done wrong between that point and the engine build; not much more I can say about that part.

93LSivic

I would have to say that it's cause the car was not tuned. Chipped ecu doesn't count as it being tuned. More than likely what happened is it was rich enough to wash down the cylinders causing the piston skirts to have no lubrication eventually wearing the wall and scratching both the piston and the cylinder which will eventually tear up the oil control rings and push oil out of the combustion chamber after it gets past the piston/rings from the crankcase being pressurized cause there is now no seal at the rings. I could go on, but yeah, you'r probably gonna need new pistons/rings and a bore/hone to get you back on track.
You should have used straight non-detergent 30wt oil for initial break in. This wont cause the car to smoke it just helps the rings break in a little faster. Valve seals typically wont leak insanely bad.
Lastely, if you need any help feel free to stop in....we're located in northern Delaware minutes from Pa.

boostfreak0885

alright thanks for the input....... the ecu has a basemap in it.... and there is no way a new motor will smoke like this on initial start up... im not going to drive the car with it smoking like this to break it in when it should not be smoking off the start.... i was planning on taking it right to a tuner to get it tuned... so i know my car wasnt tuned but it was basemapped in which you can get to a tuner... like i said i did not drive the car and im not going to drive it with it smoking like this to break it in when i know somethign is wrong

93LSivic

Thought you said you had the motor running/revving in your driveway? As long as it was running then damage could have occured. Basemaps destroy more engines then mechanical failure these days Hope all works out for you, and like I said if you need a reputable shop in Delaware then come see us.

boostfreak0885

yeah im thinking abotu bringing it to you guys if all doesnt work out with my builder... the only thing is that you have to start a car out off a basetune... because you cannot tune a car without running it and seeing air and fuel ratio.. i wasnt taching it out or anything...... my opinion its the engine builders fault because i payed him 350 to put new seals in the head and new oem valve and turns out he didnt and blamed it on my running too advanced when he put the head on my block.. and for one if i was running too advance it wouldnt really make my valve guides loose.. its not like i drove the car and made it boost and stuff... but lets just say im not taking it back to him once i get it back... he is putting new seals in the head and all new valve guides becasue they were really loose on the exhaust side..... but if i do need new psitons/ rings how much would it cost if u guys did that and honed it and stuff..... i have scat rods and vitaras now...

thanks matt

93LSivic

Best thing is to bring it by so I can have a look at the walls and the piston skirts to see if they are useable. He may have honed it too much and you might have to goto a larger piston to make it right....but like I said, bring it by so I can have a look at it.

fast forward driver

basemap should always come in " " cause it always depends on who wrote "basemap" , seen sh-t maps wash down rings... also there is a difference between ignition timing , which the dizzy does , and cam timing , which is what belt align's.... so maybe he did his job correct and somebody never checked ign timing with timing light!!! ,,, everything works together best of luck

boostfreak0885

thanks for all the help... he assembled the head today with new valve seals and valve guides and is putting it back on my block..... he hasnt done anything to the cylinder walls yet... he said his race cars had worse before and he ran them just fine.. but we will see... i cant imagine having all that blowby with those small marks that can barely even be felt... ill find out in a few days when i get my car back and put the turbo back on....

also just another quick question... im getting a bigger turbo.. the one i have is just a small t3 from my last motor i reused.... it will barely push 300hp...

i seen people use gt30 and 35r on hondas.... and is a little laggy but once its spooled its nice....

how does a t66, t70 compare to a gt30... i know one is a ball bearing and one is wet floating bearings but people say that t series spool a couple hundred rpms faster the gt series... so my guestion is is a t66, t70 too big..???? or about the same size as the gt30... i think its a 70 trim

d16z6Tcrx

are you guys serious? please tell me that your not sayin that a bad basemap caused him to blow blue smoke? thats rediculous.

your smoke is from your valve seals. i would take it back to the builder because either he put it in wrong or never changed the orignals despite installing the new parts and they arn't sealing properly.

and as far far your oil, you are sposed to use a non detergent cheap oil for start-up and break in. then depending on the purpose of the motor switch to a heavier weight oil. Race motors and i mean full race motors use a diesel oil 15-40 or 0-50 because of the harsh coditions and stress they see.

a basemap should get the car running and to the tuner not raced on. i severly doubt you detonated that fast but if you did you should see salt and pepper like dots on top of the pistions. your cylinder walls being scored is probably because he set the piston to wall clearence too loose. vitaras are very noisey from wat i hear and slapp alot.

a t66 t70 is bigger than a gt30/35r. stick with the t3/t4 57, 60 trim turbos. they are very popular and dyno proven for great power .

JaredKaragen

if the bottom end was rebuilt:

blue smoke is normal for the initial break-in perios and +100-300 miles depending... new motors usually eat up a quart pretty quick.

But I would say a combination of plugs, _TUNE_ and the lack of a proper heat-cycle and break-in were the causing factors IMHO.

A basemap for my 4D: Idle was about 4-6 points leaner than the OEM tune, and the WOT/anything above cruising was rich as ****. on OEM injectors and fuel pump (N/A motor)... take this as good info.

A new motor should not be left to idle unless it is warming up.... this is key. if you sit and idle too long, you won't seat your rings properly.

93LSivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JaredKaragen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if the bottom end was rebuilt:

blue smoke is normal for the initial break-in perios and +100-300 miles depending... new motors usually eat up a quart pretty quick.

But I would say a combination of plugs, _TUNE_ and the lack of a proper heat-cycle and break-in were the causing factors IMHO.

A basemap for my 4D: Idle was about 4-6 points leaner than the OEM tune, and the WOT/anything above cruising was rich as ****. on OEM injectors and fuel pump (N/A motor)... take this as good info.

A new motor should not be left to idle unless it is warming up.... this is key. if you sit and idle too long, you won't seat your rings properly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont agree. A properly built motor won't smoke at all after initial startup, only the assembly oil that might be on the cylinder walls and that goes away after the first few combustion cycles.
Yes and no on the idle comment---you have to let it sit there for a little while to check for leaks, set base fuel pressure, set timing....all of which can't be done until the motor is at operating temp. Then after all that I will run it and wait for oil temp to come up before I drive it to seat the rings which takes all of 5 minutes of driving or dyno time. Then change oil to same 30wt ND, change filter which I always cut open to inspect. Then tune, then inspect and change oil to your preference of non-synthetic oil.....and my magic number is 2000 miles til you can run synthetic. Thats what I do anyway, and its seem to be working fine for all my engines and customers that I build.

d16z6Tcrx

this is exactly how I broke my motor in. great info for the newbies

JaredKaragen

Agreed; but it depends on how much piston to wall clearance the motor was built with, and other factors... Cause new rings aren't fully sealing, and it takes some load to get the ring to expand and mate with the cylinder wall.

And; that's why I always do the initial break-in on OEM injectors so that it doesn't take much to get it in tune to break it in; keep it safe from washing during the first startup. But once the engine reaches operating temp, you still have 5-10 min before the cooling fan comes on... which is fully heated; so I can partially agree with you on that side.

Smoking after a fresh build; well it can also point towards a problem with the motor from when it was built.. maybe a defect of some type. Sometimes a fresh motor could overheat and fry off the new rings real quick... not unheard of.


All in all, good info passed around here.

93LSivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JaredKaragen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Agreed; but it depends on how much piston to wall clearance the motor was built with, and other factors... Cause new rings aren't fully sealing, and it takes some load to get the ring to expand and mate with the cylinder wall.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If piston rings are not mating with the cylinder wall at all times then your having a major problem. Piston rings will not expand, its the piston that expands. Piston to wall clearance it based on the application (Turbo, N2O, NA) and also on the material the piston is made of.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JaredKaragen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And; that's why I always do the initial break-in on OEM injectors so that it doesn't take much to get it in tune to break it in; keep it safe from washing during the first startup. But once the engine reaches operating temp, you still have 5-10 min before the cooling fan comes on... which is fully heated; so I can partially agree with you on that side.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats not a bad idea starting the car on stock injectors, probably the only thing I agree with you on.
I consider the motor fully warmed up according to oil temp, not water temp. Oil heats much much slower.

boostfreak0885

ok got my car back all new valves/seals/guides... still smoke... oil where the exhaust comes out the head......

took turbo off cuz bad turbo tend to smoke like this.... put a stock manifold on, stock injectors, still smokes......

passed leak down test, comp test...


whoever said that a new motor will loose a quart of oil is wrong... maybe your motor did.. but no new motor should use 1 quart of oil for break in...

and on a fresh hone rings will set within 20 seconds after you start it on a fresh hone with new rings... it only takes 20 seconds to set new rings on a fresh hone... builder and numerious shops told me that....

my cylinider walls did have some scaring... and he told me it was from detonation when thats not possible on a idling motor that has not seen boost..... maybe it washed the oil off my walls with a basemap from phearable.net.. on 780cc... but the car did smoke at initial start up...

maybe he didnt put enough of assembly lube on the walls......
know one will know... all i gotta say is now im stock with a smoking motor with scars on the side of my culinder walls that my builder is not going to pay for... IMO he did not set my rings correctly and there was too much slapping around going on down there and marked it all up and oil getting right past the rings....

im not going to name the engine builder but he screwed me over... he even charged me to put the valve guides/seals in when i paid him to do that before and he neevr did it...

so now im stuck with taking ti to another guy in berlin md, who acually knows all about hondas... so pretty much a hone is not going to clean it up with new rings because now i def know i have to get it bored .020 over and oversized pistons because the builder never checked clearances... on turbo motors the clearances are diff then N/A... for turbo you want to make sure that you have the best possible seal.

so it looks like im going to have to get a ovrsized vitara....

i didnt want to go oversized which means less meat on the walls because boring isnt always good with no sleeving

so ill let you guys know when i get the motor apart and get it bored with new pistons/rings

boostfreak0885

just to let all you guys know... took it to someone else and he took it all apart to find out the guy bored it too big... now i have to get new rings, and new oversized pistons!!!!!!