H22Honda98

What's up guys? I'm about to get rolling on my setup and figured I would share.

The car in question is a 1998 prelude. Back in 2009ish the original h22 finally blew at 200k+ and I was a broke *** college kid at the time and opted for the F22B DOHC non VTEC. At the time I think HMO was only asking ~$450 for the long block and I couldn't pass it up. I rarely drive the car, and have probably put under 5k miles on it in those 7ish years.

I'm shooting for right around 325whp or so. I feel like the setup itself will be efficient enough to get me there without a problem. The overall goal with the prelude is to have a great street car with solid response and a powerband that makes sense. I spoke with TheShodan about what i was looking for and he pointed me in the direction of the STC "Hunter" in a .63ar. We went ahead with the ball bearing version and he hooked me up with a (Beautiful) polished compressor housing and coated turbine as well. Thumbs up for days for STC.

My hope has been that I could build a somewhat reliable setup with the stock block. Obviously you can only be so reliable when you double the power in an oem engine, but I've tried to minimize the risk as much as possible. The engine itself is in fantastic condition to begin with having come from HMO. In the last few weeks i went ahead and changed the head gasket (OEM), installed ARP head studs, timing belt, water pump, all oil seals, etc due to a drip from one of the cam seals...I was already in there and hate doing things twice, so it was worth it.
Hopefully it lasts a while...if not then I'll just have to pony up and build a block I suppose

Setup
Stock block F22B DOHC/H23 trans/CC stage 4
STC BB Hunter .63
Lovefab Mini Me EQ
3" DP/exhaust/open dump
Tial 44mm MVR
Tial 50mm BOV
RC 1000's/Walbro 255
Greddy IC
Etc


The crown jewel




I didn't get a great shot of it, but you can see the STC 4 Bolt to 3" V Band adapter in this pic. Quality piece and looks great in comparison to some of the other solutions I've seen.






Went with the GE cam gears




Fresh arp studs and oem hg


I had planned on running the f22 transmission that I have had in the car for a few years now, but came across a smoking deal on am h23 engine and trans. I couldn't help it and just went ahead and pulled the engine and swapped the trans. Here is how she sits as of right now. I'll button everything back up tomorrow, make some final purchases, and hopefully get started with the install this week!



Critiques/ comments are welcome and I'm sure I'll have more than a couple questions over the course of the install.

I have been considering running e85 because of the highish volume of stations near me...is there any advantage to running a high knock resistant fuel if you aren't at power levels/CR that exceed the capabilities of pump gas? My thought was that it would provide a little buffer for detonation regardless, but I dont know if Im off base and it wouldn't be worth messing with at this power level/would be a negligible difference.

boosted94gsr

Nice man! I'm using the same exact turbo on my build with very similar goals. Good luck. I'll keep an eye on this build.

H22Honda98

Thanks man. Saw your thread earlier and became motivated to make mine haha. I'm really curious to see what the powerbands look like between our setups.

H22Honda98

What up guys? its about time i update this thread and post the results.

Everything turned out awesome. The powerband is amazing. completely blew away the expectations i had for the car. 10/10 fun. we Dyno'd the car NA when i got there....it made 130whp/132wtq with power dropping off hard at about 5800 RPMs. i pretty much make my old peak numbers the second i hit the pedal. i wish we had the old graph to overlay over the new one.

Anyways, I have a good friend that lives up in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada that owns and operates his own dyno shop (Silver Maple Numerics - look them up if youre in the Edmonton area) and he was nice enough to invite me out there to put the setup together and hang out for a few weeks. So, i decided to use that as an excuse to make a vacation out of the whole deal and head on up to Edmonton from Indianapolis. just shy of 2000 miles going across the continent with a car full of turbo parts haha. I was nervous as hell when i left edmonton and had that long trip ahead of me, but shockingly, i did not have one single issue on the way home. Everything was tip top and just because of newtons law i was shocked when i crossed back into indiana problem free. anyways, onto the good stuff.

The car made 315/265 at about 9-9.5 psi right off the WG spring. It was tuned on 91, but ill switch to 93 in the future since im home. honestly i feel that the graph is a little misleading....this turbo begins building boost the instant you mash the pedal from virtually any rpm around 2500....and it builds it FAST. My tuner, myself, and everyone there was shocked at how responsive this turbo is coupled with the fact that it makes great power on what seems to be a relatively low amount of boost pressure...i dont believe im even in the meat of its efficiency range yet. i absolutely could not be more pleased with this turbo. lag doesnt exist. Transient response is fantastic as well...i compared to the journal bearing equipped cars ive been in, its night and day. im just very very pleased with how this turned out. i now realize why a lot of knowledgeable people in our community tend to preach powerband>peak numbers.








One part of this build i was very happy with was the way the oil return turned out. The lovefab mini me sits low, WAY lower than i expected. Thanks to my buddy Jared who took care of all the fab work on this project, we decided to cut the fittings that came with the turbo for the oil return, and actually weld the fitting directly onto the flange that bolts to the turbo with as small a piece as was feasible, and did the same with the oil pan. Before doing that, the options were to either have the oil returning at the VERY bottom of the oil pan, or use a 90 degree fitting and cross my fingers the oil doesnt back up and i ruin a brand new turbo (which was not an option). Turned out great, the return is short and is as high up on the oil pan as was possible. i was losing sleep over this issue at the time....nothing like having talented tig welders around to help you navigate problems like this.




Now, onto the issue im currently having. hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me has some insight here. Edmonton is at about 1900 or so feet above sea level. Indiana is 6-700. Ever since i got back into town, i run lean in boost (13:1 ish). surely its due to the altitude. We thought about this before i went up there, and we expected the ECU/MAP sensor to make the necessary corrections when the altitude dropped.....well it didnt. Does this have something to do with the fact that im running a GM 3 Bar MAP? Not too many people drive their boosted cars 2000 miles through huge altitude changes so info on this subject is very limited. Im in touch with a knowledgeable member of HT who is local to me that i know wouldnt have any trouble fixing my tune, but if i can save both of us the time and hassle, i would like to. Any insight on why the ECU isnt adjusting for altitude would be helpful.

Big thanks to Silver Maple Numerics and all my buds up in Edmonton that lended a hand with this build.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Congrats on everything working so well!!!! To answer The GM 3Bar doesn't have anything to do with the corrections you're needing. That's not much of an altitude change compared to 6400ft to 630ft that most people deal with. What AFR were you at full throttle vs. now? I just don't want you to "fix" something that might not be broken because a reading seems weird to you.

H22Honda98

Thanks man! Its been a long time coming.

Good to know the map sensor doesnt have anything to do with the issue. I was a little surprised that it changed as much as it did. Right up until the elevation dropped in Wisconsin/Illinois, i hadnt seen it go over 12.5 at all. It was pretty dead on between 12.2-12.5 at wot and full boost. Now i see it break 13:1 regularly. Its not that it stays there the whole time at/around 13, but it gets there and i know that it wasnt doing that before. Ive stayed out of the pedal ever since i noticed it. i suppose its possible that something happened on the drive back that might be affecting it, but im not sure what that would be.

I ran out and took a couple quick vids showing the gauge. these are both in second gear and i let off as soon as i see it get in the 13 range. how dangerous do you consider a 13:1 AFR?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That doesn't look too concerning to me. It's literally a blip in getting there, otherwise it stays around that area. You're going to get small fluxes like that with changes in fuel density, higher humidity, plugs that although read fine, are losing their spark, etc.
I'd look at the plugs and your ignition first, fill with some nicer fuel and try that again.

I stopped using AFR gauges. I'm not a tuner, nor will I be, and they are mainly for the tuner themselves. Not to say that ignorance is bliss, but sometimes, there are just those gauges that scare the **** out of you more than doing much good. Sorry to be the old man of the group, but I haven't run an AFR gauge since 2004 for that very reason. I've had no issues since. (Honestly, there's nothing you CAN do if it ran too lean but shut the engine off at that last possible second).

But again, I'm old, and not too worried about this particular aspect from my experience. .

H22Honda98

If you dont think its a big deal ill stop worrying about it. i actually agree, that gauge gives me anxiety more than anything. its this oh **** gauge where you just wait for a bad reading. the fluctuations and little differences leave me wondering if something is wrong....for instance, both of those videos are pulls in 2nd gear at about the same rpm or so....on the first video the gauge sees 12.7:1 and drops, on the other it goes straight to 13.1:1 and slowly drops to 12.8:1 before i let off of it. huge difference if you often pay attention to the gauge and have an expectation about the reading.

the car is currently tuned on 91 because thats the highest octane you can rely on travelling back through canada....now that im back in indy and have 93 everywhere, would it add a little safety net to go ahead and run 93?

boosted94gsr

12.8-13 afr is too lean, at that boost pressure 11.8-12.0 afr would be safer imo. I would go ahead and run it on 93. What ems are you using?
Looks good and nice progress btw.

H22Honda98

thanks man. its running on eCtune right now. Do you think the afr is dangerous enough that i need to stay out of boost and get a retune asap? is it normal for it to smack 13:1 and trickle down? im not sure what the nature/behavior of these tunes are.

boosted94gsr

I wouldn't drive my own car around in boost if the afrs were in the 13s. It's not normal to spike to 13. Your afr should taper down as engine load increases. Although wheel spin and ignition break up can cause weird afr readings. You should contact your tuner.

H22Honda98

ill get in touch with him but i doubt he'll be able to help out a ton being so far away. If its necessary ill just get it retuned altogether and take the guess work out of it. itd be a shame a to blow this up over something silly.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I too, would just run 93 octane and be done. I think that the bump in octane does a better job than you think it does I would also like to see 11.8-12.0 would be ideal, but I understand that you may not be able to tune it yourself to do so in the right fuel trims.. I'd also change the plugs at the same time, but I actually think you're ok.

H22Honda98

Would a crappy tank of gas cause a reading to change like this? Im pretty low on fuel and my last tank came from nowheresville Illinois. maybe their 91/93 has been sitting there for a while. I think ill go fill it up with quality 93 today and see what it does. In general, running the 93 wouldnt actually change the AFR, it would just add a little bit of a pillow for detonation occuring, correct? plugs are new and i went a step colder, ill check them out and replace if needed.

Yeah, tuning it myself sadly isn't an option. I probably need to learn if I'm to maintain a car like this. this would be a total non issue if i knew how. relying on other people to solve your problems is a PITA.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes. an old tank of fuel can easily cause these lean spikes. that means that the BTUs of energy are lower than normal and you'll run a bit lean. I would also change plugs. I honestly don't think it needs to be retuned.
Better yet, get a nice bottle of octane booster with your 93 octane. It won't negatively effect your tune, and you can see the changes immediately.

H22Honda98

Ok Ill change the plugs out today and remove that from the equation. Im currently running BKR7E's gapped at .030 . Go for the same plug and same gap? ill pick up some quality octane booster as well. When you say that i can see the changes immediately, you mean ill actually see it on the gauge? higher octane=cooler burn=richer AFR, correct? It would be stellar if this could be solved without needing a retune.

Thanks for all the help, its a special kind of torture babying this car right now

BADBIDDY

I think you typically want a gap of .025 or smaller. I usually start at .025, then .020, then decrements of .001 from there.

H22Honda98

well, i just took the car back out and noticed something odd and it might be the culprit here. when i hit full boost, i can smell exhaust gases in the cabin, but ONLY if the windows are down. windows up=nothing, windows up/blower on=nothing. The smell is instantaneous, its in my nose the second i let off the gas. maybe its creating some negative pressure situation with the window cracked. it was so damn cold up north i never opened the windows to notice this, or maybe it happened on the way home. Point is, i might have a small exhaust leak of some sort before the wideband sucking in fresh air, giving me a false lean reading. thing is i cant hear a leak anywhere at all, the exhaust 'appears' to be fully sealed and it sounds like it is at idle. At full boost its hard to hear anything due to this open dumptube. Maybe positive pressure is finding its way out somewhere. a leak pre-wideband could only be the engine to mani/mani to turbo, the downpipe, or my flex pipe right before the WB. would it make sense that i only leak under boost?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Same plugs, same gap. You may see a bit of change in the gauge, but again, I don't depend upon that .2-.4 change when the plugs and fuel can easily do the job.
If you do see the change after a day or so (so that the fuel can mix in properly and get the old fuel out), then you're good, and you should stop looking at that so much. It's going to do nothing but freak you out more.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

that's your wastegate dump exhaust you're smelling. It's down past the transmission and pan, so it's going to do that. You may not have smelled it before due to the fans blowing in a particular direction on the dyno in between runs. On the street, it's a bit different. I can tell that was going to happen when you showed photos of your exhaust dumptube being so far downstream.

But just in case you want to look further, look for any cracks in your dumptube. It may have been fatigued from the heat it's experiencing and may have created a crack. Look at the exhaust manifold, too.

Start changing these items, drive the car, then check for cracks in the dumptube, drive the car again. You have to create steps to eliminate this or you'll continually speculate and go bat-****..

H22Honda98

That makes sense. My dumptube was so short and was angled in such a way that i had this feeling the turbo would end up sucking up the exhaust gases. Ill inspect the exhaust pieces and see what i end up with, but they dont sound like theyre leaking and youre probably spot on about the dump tube. I had this image of the gases just rocketing out and under the rear of the car but apparently physics has its own rules.

tank of good gas/octane booster, new plugs and we'll see where it stands.

DickensA

Your afr going lean could be a tip in throttle enrichment issue

you need to do some datalogs to be sure and graph tps
afr

13afr is too lean and you can be smelling more fumes now than before if you already damaged your rings.

Pull the plugs and look for detonation on them

pull the plugs

pull the plugs
"
"
"

H22Honda98

Ill have to get in touch with my tuner and see about getting setup for datalogging. i have a demon, but only because he was having issues burning the chip and just had me take the demon with me for now, so i dont actually have the software up and running on my laptop. Ive tried a few different times to download eCtune, but i keep getting an error saying that i dont have the "native libraries". Anyone that knows of a reliable download for eCtune, definitely let me know. i havent found a way to get in touch with support of any kind because the website is down and well....eCtune just doesnt feel like supporting their software i guess.

when i get back home ill cut it off at the end of a pull and pull the plugs and post pics. ive been so careful with this car ever since i noticed this i dont think there is any damage. those 2 vids above are about the only times ive hit boost at all since ive noticed the afr.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Or better yet.. Pyrometer , Pyrometer, Pyrometer (aka. EGT gauge).
That gauge gives just as much information if not more, then pulling plugs all day. Hell, even my tuner doesn't touch the plugs unless EGT seems a bit off for what's being done.


Tip-in enrichment issues localize themselves from partial throttle tuning and utility from my experience. This is happening at wide open throttle. Just playing devil's advocate here.

DickensA

whats would be easier for op, drop his entire turbo setup to drill and tap his manifold, buy an egt sensor and gauge then learn to use the gauge? Or just pull his spark plugs put and learn to read them?

Tip in shows conditions exactly like his vid shows. Spikes lean then get rich. The throttle plate snapping open is what causes this and it gets worse with bigger throttle bodies