possible to just run a p28 on an HX without chipping, thinking about heading to the junk yard and grabbing one

 

Ok so I am soooo bookmarking this thread. Considering its on HT, I expected it to get bashed instantly, but nope. I have scoured turbod16 (my name there is Keto06) for the last couple months, and read all of bense/spades threads on here.

Ok, so, I have been building my turbo HX setup since June and I will prolly get it going within the next month.

I am using the HF mani/adaptor plate/t25 setup with DSM 450s and resistors
(I didnt wanna wire in the resistor box. My HX wiring harness is weird. I would recommend HX owners to RCs or Precisions) 255lph pump, 2.5" dp, Stealthmode Oil Lines, chipped and basemapped p28, FMIC and a ebay BOV, NGK bkr7e's on y5 wires.

I too had the terrible battle of Fuel Management. I think, looking back, the best best would be a Greddy Ultimate Piggyback System, but those things are pricey. Retains stock ECU and fully tuneable. No Missing Link (which you would only need for a FMU setup, you dont needone for chipped or VAFC)

My dad owns a shop, so I will just tell them the car is a 95 and do a tailpipe test, so I dont have to worry about it like you do.

I went with a chipped p28 ecu and conversion harness setup. I know this will, in stock form, throw a couple of codes, from a guy on turbod16. However, he got it tuned and got the codes taken care of, so he says if I do the same I should be good. Keep your stock IM unless you have to get rid of it. Port it to death, but dont change it.

Interesting enough with his setup, he ran it very rich while getting it tuned (10afrs) with very low timing and wasnt making ANY power and was dropping off considerably around 5k. He brought the AFRs up to mid 11s and threw in some more timing and his hp skyrocketed, especially in the midrange. He then leaned it out even more 11.8-12.4AFRs with a little more timing throughout the range and was able to take his original setup of 154whp to 188whp. A 34whp gain with better gas mileage! No boost increases. He was running 9psi on a Greddy 15g Kit with FMIC on DSM 450s on a p28. I think he started with a y8 basemap and lowered the VTEC point, which is what I did as well.

Would you like me to post the graphs?

I contacted Delta Cams about a possible regrind just last night, and they want me to send out a y5 cam for measuring and such, so now I gotta find a spare one. Darn things. So hard to come by.

I am thinking about a y8 tranny as well, but if I get one, I am going to get a better boost controller so I am boosting as little and as late as possible, which is a problem on t25s. Great low-mid range and top end suXorzs. I will prolly only keep this setup for about a year and then I will build my block (still debating on what internals to use) and run a later spooling turbo with an external gate with a low psi spring, for my long cruises between Houston and Dallas.

Hope I helped. Oh, if you havent done a tuneup lately (cap,rotor,wires,plugs) or timing belt (waterpump/tensioner/drivebelts/seals) I would recommend those.

One last thing. If your making less than 200whp and you dont already have a 3" exhaust, dont worry about upgrading it. You will gain only a couple hp with the 3" over the 2.5" and the 2.5" will sound better and have less clearance issues. Also easier to find in a catback.

I also would recommend the NGK wideband. I have heard nothing but good things from them.

*********************
Silly off topic question, but on Eks, when you lower it (I plan on using Eibach ProKits) do you need the front or back camber kit more? I thought it was the rear. I am gonna drop my car when I get my kit put on so I can measure out clearance for everything.

Oh yea, VTEC-E squad FTW!


And OMGna D16, pick up a p2n or chip that p28. Your maps will be too rich, the timing wont work, and the vtec will be too high.

 

kicked25th, that was REALLY helpful man. Learned some important stuff! thanks

now i am leaning more towards the p28 setup with EX basemap and all that, and then doing something about emissions, who knows, i will tackle that when the time comes.

about the injectors, the DSMs need a resistor box, but the RCs and Precisions dont?? confused on that now

but about the EK camber kit, i think you need the front more, because on the rear you can do a washer trick and it takes care of it.


parts are coming along nice and smoothly.

more info would help

 

Yea man I been studying like CRAZY. Its insane. Lemme see what we got here.

p28 with y8 basemap/p2p timing with VTEC set at 3k (somesay 2700 but I like 3k) calibrated for 450cc injectors. That should get you to the nearest tuner. As for the emissions, I dont know. emissions is the only thing that makes piggybacks worth it.

DSMs are peak and hold injectors, while most honda injectors, and i say MOST meaning the ones most people use (ie newer D series and B series) are saturated, therefore they need a resistor box. Precisions and RCs are saturated, so they dont need a resistor box. THis is why I know some people running 550s from a RX7. They are saturated. I actually prefer HMTs setup using inline resistors vs a resistor box, being as I can do the inline resistors and save money at the expense of a clean install, but if you see my foglights, I am far from a clean install LOL. This is my ghetto mobile. LOL. Which is why I am using a t25/adaptor plate/450s/old FMIC setup. All used parts adds to the ghettoness, yet kills the reliability. LIke it said though, its only a stepping stone before my eventual setup.

What else can I help you with?

***********
Back to the camber kit dealy, what is this washer trick? I am unfamiliar. This is my 1st Civic (I have had 2 Integras and a RSX, 1 dropped but before I bought it) and a lot of common Civic lingo dosnt click. As for the front, how good of a condition is your camber kit? Like I said I plan on using Eibach Pro Kits on stock shocks.

GMAIL squad ftw.

 

yea i just need help on the tuning parts. still am deciding on an ECU or standalone EMS (expensive...) or hack or something. i dont want to take any shortcuts with this car.

this is still a R&D phase for me, so any breakthrough im sure would help all HX owners everywhere.

and im still gathering parts too so now i have some idea of what to get still.

---
as for the rear camber trick, here you go:
http://home.earthlink.net/~civ....html

and other Civic FAQs:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/642479

thanks man

 

I wouldnt go standalone. Go Hondata if you got the money, Crome if you dont, or Greddy if you wanna stay OBD2. Tuning on the hack is HARD on the HX, but can be done. As mentioned though, the hack advances timing, which you dont want, so I would recommend some kind of boost timing retard system.

Like I said, if I could do it all over it again, I woulda gone with Greddy Ultimate. Though most places charge a flat fee of $500 for Greddys, vs 100-200 an hour for ECUs, but whatever. With an HX youd prolly spend 500 anyway.

 

What I would do is just get a P28 or P06 ecu converted and chipped and tuned for your setup. When you need to go for emissions testing put in your stock HX ecu, and injectors, drive it to the shop (without boosting) and get it emissions testing. When your done come back home and put in the chipped ecu and bigger injectors. Done...you passed emissions and you can still have a chipped OBDI ecu. Thats pretty much the only way to do it because you don't wanna mess around with AFC hacks and FMU's. My .02

 

Oh i will have about $650-$700 set aside just for tuning, the major part IMO.

i was thinking :
-p28 with hondata s300 (not gonna go cheap on tuning)
-or greddy tuning

the p07 california with hack, i dont think i wanna waste all that time to do.

where does the p06 come from again?? civic CX?

EDIT*

So if i have my OBDII HX pn2 ECU and injectors in with the turbo kit and just drive slow and not boost, i can pass emissions? would that hurt the motor in any way, having no tuning whatsoever with the turbo setup?

 

On a t25, you would have to shift early and not go above like 40-50 to stay out of boost. Hard but not impossible.

In Vac your car runs on 14.7, so 14.7 on a tuned ECU si 14.7 on a chipped ECU, just as he said stay out of boost, though I dont recommend this.

The Hondata s300 has a lot of cool fetures dont get me wrong, but nothing wrong with a good Crome Pro tune. Though gear controlled boost is nice.

Stay away from the p07, not even R&D dude, leave it alone. As for a converted ECU, my "p28" is a converted pr4, its all the same really. Add vtec + chip + tune and GO!

 

well the way to the emissions place, the speed limit doesnt exceed 45mph, so im good.

so p28 with hondata s300 would be pretty sweet, and maybe a 14 ARF or something like that. i just want all my physical parts first.

and another thing to add this spring, i need to get a 99-00 front end conversion now i guess. i think it looks hot.

two months back my dad backed into my car, cracked the front bumper and the hood got bent...my headlights are oxidizing..and two days ago some stupid SUV hit my front fender..and it dented and paint cracked..damnit..just what i need

 

99 fronts look cool but u gotta get the 99 tails. They really set it off.

Now, like I said, Hondata is sweet but expensive. I know MANY people running 400+whp on Crome, Uberdata and s100s setups. s300 is almost unnecessary if you ask me, but like I said, it does have a few cool features. Its just a lot of money, lets leave it at that.

Your AFRs will prolly be in the 11.5-12.4 range while in boost. Any lower than 11.5 with a t25 u will run 2 rich and anymore than 12.4 too lean. Timing is key on t25s because they dont flow a lot

Heres my recommendation to you. Buy a small t3 like a .60/.48 and buy a t3 manifold and tune it on Crome. Should cost the same as t25 with adaptor plate tuned on Hondata, but u will put out MUCH better numbers and enjoy it a lot more, unless u already have the t25 setup.


**************************

Oh yes, and I hate to say it but there is a chance I may have to sell my HX. I know. It sucks. A guy here is offering his z6 with vitaras and TT rods for 3800 running. I cant pass that up.

 

already got the red/clear 99 tails :D

and i dont have the t25 yet, that is still on a gsx that a friend of mine owns. im getting the t25 for a good deal, but who knows i may change my mind.

vitara pistons are badass i wish i could have those.

 

Yea vitaras rock!

On the t25, it wasnt about price. WHat Im saying is instead of spending a million dollars on Hondata that you DONT need (I know a bunch of guys at over 400whp on Crome), spend that money on a better turbo so you can really feel the power at the higher RPMs where the t25 tends to die.

If you went with a t25 tuned on Hondata, and then somehow managed to go back in time and switch to a t3 either (.42 or .60)ar/.48ar tuned with Crome, you would thank me. I am sure.

 

im getting his dsm 450cc injectors and t25 off of that gsx for like $100. so now i dont know if i want that, cuz yea the turbo doesnt do to well at high rpms. but now i have to find a t3 somewhere

 

Did u already buy the 14b/t25 adaptor plate? BMC makes one for HF mani-->t3, Id recommend picking that up. Its like the same price. Most decent t3 manis start at 200 + so Id recommend the adapter plate.

Also, if you must go with that turbo then do it, but take the injectors. Make sure you get the resistor box if not using inlines and obd1 clips for those.

And I have changed my mind. I would get the Greddy. I honestly cant think of ONE reason not to. Anyone have on? Its less than the Hondata, retains all factory sensors, you wont have the common fast idle problem, The wideband 02 wont mess up. Unless someone can explain to me a reason why he should not use the Greddy EManage Ultimate, then I would recommend it. plus you dont have to worry about chip burning and soldering and all that. Well, maybe on the wiring harness but bleh.


Modified by kicked25th at 2:48 AM 11/10/2006

 

E-manage ultimate on prostreetonline is about $550. hondata s300 is about $595.

would this greddy unit just hook up to my stock ECU?

 

I know a place where u can get the ultimate brand new for 400. I think it should, but IM not sure.

And remember, Hondata requires an odb1 conversion, so u might as well do Crome/Neptune like I advised.

 

About your potential obd1 emissions situation... I'm in the same boat. Emissions in October and I've converted to obd1 running a chipped p28. You are right on swapping back in the obd2 ecu but the real question is will the ecu know how to run your dsm 450's. My p72 gsr ecu wont know how to run my RC 440's, so ill have to swap back the stock injectors as well. And since I'm running a external WG, i'll pull out the spring so I wont see any boost.

Now you can do all that but you might still throw a CEL if your 2nd o2 sensor isnt plugged into anything... thats my problem so ill have to solve that come time by possibly cutting out a section of my 3" exhaust and welding in a hi flow cat with a o2 bung. It's alot of work but I aint getting rid of my car. Good luck.

 

exactly. i dont want to take off the turbo, hell no.

i already have an o2 fooler for my apex exhaust because it threw a CEL before. so as for the turbo and emissions, i might just do the same thing and put in the stock ecu and injectors and just not boost and hope i pass.

worst comes to worst, i fail, remove turbo kit, retest, and then pass. no biggie.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaEJ7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">exactly. i dont want to take off the turbo, hell no.

i already have an o2 fooler for my apex exhaust because it threw a CEL before. so as for the turbo and emissions, i might just do the same thing and put in the stock ecu and injectors and just not boost and hope i pass.

worst comes to worst, i fail, remove turbo kit, retest, and then pass. no biggie. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly. In the scheme of things, its all worth it in the end. Now whats this o2 fooler you are talking about?

 

i have an apex n1 catback and a high flow cat. i had all my stock sensors working fine. then one day i got a CEL for some threshold overload (forgot the exact code) my car ran like crap and was a little rich and it bogged.

i was pissed, so actually i went to factory5 and they installed me an o2 fooler on my exhaust that prevents that CEL from coming on. i dont know if that would cause me to fail emissions though.

 

I think its called an "o2 defouler" and is very common as a way to pass emissions.

With an external pulling the spring should work, but for internals, your in trouble. I think thats why so many people still run the hack with or MSD BTM.

A lot of downpipes come with 2 sensor holes, so if you want to buy one that will usually help.

And yea. Try, fail, fix, try again, pass.

Im actually trying to get an HX swapped EG so I can run odb1 legally. MMMHMMM.

And yes, stock ECU running 440s/450s is NEVER a good thing.....

 

Any other questions?

 

none i can think of this week, im a little busy. i will check back later.

thanks

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kicked25th &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think its called an "o2 defouler" and is very common as a way to pass emissions.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Anyone know how this o2 defouler works?