electric_rex

alright guys... I have a few questions about the topic
here's my setup history
b18a
gsr crank
ross 9 to 1 pistons
eagle h beams
b16 head
gsr cams
itr springs
aebs intake
gsr throttle body
t3/60-1
.63 hot/.70 cold
lovefab ramhorn mani
tial 40mm wg
blitz dual drive bov
880cc precision inj's
walbro 255 lph
hondata s200b
avcr
I just got my motor back from being rebuilt due to faulty bearings. I haven't really experienced the lag of the 60-1 but I'm pretty sure it would be significant enough that if I could find a way to minimize it, it would probably help.
I had the bright idea mid build that if I were to add itb's I might be able to reduce the lag significantly, not only that I should also realize a gain in power under the curve. I am buying the twm's this weekend.
if anybody has advice about things that I will have to do to make this work, please don't hesitate to post and inform thanks. I'm also looking for dyno graphs before and after itb's. as of now I know I have to get better management and have a custom plenum made, but other than that what else am I going to need?
thanks guys.

I BOUGHT THE ITB'S










this is the bay



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Modified by electric_rex at 5:46 PM 10/17/2006

electric_rex

c'mon guys let's discuss how this is going to be a little more technical than your average build

tokesGTR

Lag went down on a buddies GTR when we swapped from the stock intake manifold (with individual throttle bodies) to a big plenum with a 105mm TB. A well designed plenum is going to outperform a poorly designed ITB setup, so don't think ITB's will magically equate to great throttle response.

Flexin5

wasen't tony the tiger running ITB's on a FI setup?

electric_rex

now you mentioned that going to a bigger throttle body help to make a noticable difference in boost response but did the area under the curve increase dramatically or was it miniscule. do you have any before and after dynos of his setup? I'm just trying to find out whether or not this would be a waste of time. most of the high end porche's have itb's, tell me why I shouldn't/ should.
I'm not neccisarily saying that itb's are the cure all for turbo lag. but from what I have noticed most high end cars use them. I'm just wanting something that I can use to realize better throttle response and minimize lag on my current setup. through reading I have found that I am going to have to run a check valve between the vacuum source and the brake booster, that way I don't have positive boost in the brake booster.
using the shorter runners should
theoretically increase lower rpm torque. which should also decrease boost lag due to the increase in exhaust gases at lowers rpms. I'm just trying to find out what type of adverse effects boosting itbs could/might have on my setup. keep in mind I'm not looking for the highest overall hp but for the greatest area under the curve for my given setup without have to change turbos.


Modified by electric_rex at 4:31 PM 10/10/2006

85

you should put 4 turbos + ITB!!! one to each TB!!!

electric_rex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hks85 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you should put 4 turbos + ITB!!! one to each TB!!! </TD></TR></TABLE>

guys im serious i want real input here so far i havent found any viable information.

thehatchninja

Make an equal length ramhorn intake setup to feed the ITB's.

That'd be sick.

electric_rex

tony the tiger ............... help please you are the only person that i know of that has experience on the subject at hand. guy im trying to be realistic.

liam821

Getting a better sized turbo will be cheaper, and help with spool time WAAYYY more then spending money on making a ITB setup.

Even with ITBs, you still need a plenum. The gain is minimal at best.

Ditch the lag monster 60-1 and get something that better matchs the power you want to make - maybe a gt28rs or gt30r.

If you want to make 4059823452345 million hp, welcome to the world of lag if you wanna keep a honda badge on the front.

liam

Boosted Chemist

iTrader: (1)

Check out the new full race intake manifold, it has velocity stacks inside the large plenum. http://www.full-race.com

jdm monkey

Why do you let people tell you what to do? Just do it! Tony the tiger already mentioned about better throttle response. Skyline GTR uses them and as you mentioned, some Porsche's. Now, if you got time and money, DO IT!

bluemax189

or you could just port out the turbo housing???? thats alot cheaper and easier.

HiProfile

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by liam821 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Getting a better sized turbo will be cheaper, and help with spool time WAAYYY more then spending money on making a ITB setup.

Even with ITBs, you still need a plenum. The gain is minimal at best.

Ditch the lag monster 60-1 and get something that better matchs the power you want to make - maybe a gt28rs or gt30r.

If you want to make 4059823452345 million hp, welcome to the world of lag if you wanna keep a honda badge on the front.

liam</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow, I almost thought I typed that Spot-on in every respect

He's right, a better sized turbo - that also has ball-bearings - will be a much better choice. Cost won't be that much different, unless you weld it yourself, but time is still money. Very few streetable hondas can really lay 300+ whp down w/o traction issues. As for it being a 400+ whp highway queen, a downshift is always better than lugging the motor with boost in a higher gear (despite a setup providing less lag). Track cars having 300+ whp will also never see lag unless they skip a gear or intentionally eek off the line for fun.

To make a long story short: the situation that requires a 60-1 is where you don't give a **** about lag, and the situation where you use a gt30 is where spool/traction is important but bragging rights aren't.

As for ITB's in factory turbo cars - they just happen to be using turbos sized appropriately. Dual gt28's on a 2.6L and a dual gt30's on a 3-ish liter horazontally-opposed 6cyl isn't as 'insane' as a 60-1 on a 1.8L. What I'm saying is they use the turbos and displacement to combat lag, and ITB's for throttle response. Not ITBs for both. Please note that TOny the Tiger's setup is a gt2871r - a smaller turbo (than yours) with ball-bearings. He has the lag issue solved with the turbo, and the ITBs to help mainly throttle response.

And btw bluemax, porting a turbo's housing (comp or turbine) will always result in more lag (of course, flow too) on a honda.

electric_rex

well guys I thought I was specific when I mentioned that I didn't want to switch turbos, but I guess not. anyway I will hopefully post before and after dynos to let you guys see the difference the itbs made.

electric_rex

not saying that I disagree with any of the following posts about better suited turbo sizes for my set up, I comptletely understand where you guys are coming from. but going to a smaller turbo means turning up the boost to get to my given power goals, which inturn means higher intake temps, which means more danger to my stock cylinder walls.
on another note. I thought tony stepped up from the gt28rs. isn't he running something bigger now?

85

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by electric_rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well guys I thought I was specific when I mentioned that I didn't want to switch turbos, but I guess not. anyway I will hopefully post before and after dynos to let you guys see the difference the itbs made.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please do!!!

For a long time I was messing with the idea but never got around to having the money. Ive seen intake manifolds that integrated a plenum with ITBs. I cant remember where i saw them though.

Remember that aside from having the right sizes, you need to keep flow smooth! as one of the upper posts stated, "ram horn"! Factoring everything I know about fluid dynamics and what not that is the single best idea for a turbo setup i have ever herd. you would get equal flow to each cylinder which would normally not come with a plenum style setup, and the turbulence (in theory) would be non existence in comparison. If you need some help in the sizing calculations let me know, ill be glad to help out.

85

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hks85 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Please do!!!

For a long time I was messing with the idea but never got around to having the money. Ive seen intake manifolds that integrated a plenum with ITBs. I cant remember where i saw them though.

Remember that aside from having the right sizes, you need to keep flow smooth! as one of the upper posts stated, "ram horn"! Factoring everything I know about fluid dynamics and what not that is the single best idea for a turbo setup i have ever herd. you would get equal flow to each cylinder which would normally not come with a plenum style setup, and the turbulence (in theory) would be non existence in comparison. If you need some help in the sizing calculations let me know, ill be glad to help out. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I was so inspired by what i wrote 5 min ago that i decided to weld up my own setup!




Rather then a Top Mount, you could use a side mount

MidShipCivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hks85 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was so inspired by what i wrote 5 min ago that i decided to weld up my own setup!




Rather then a Top Mount, you could use a side mount </TD></TR></TABLE>

Your're missing the plenum noob .

phatgsr98

needs one of those sidwinders on ther to work properly

85

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Your're missing the plenum noob .</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you read the entire thing? My point was not to mount an exhaust manifold to a $2000 set of ITBs. you picture was supposed to look dumb. We all pay so much attention to the exhaust flow and the exhaust manifold so why not give the same suspect to the intake side? I know one big prob with that picture is that the runners are far too long for a high reving Honda.

Some of you right now are thinking im wrong and that all the big name applications are using a plenum so your going to use one too. oh yeah cars, they use to use these things called "carburetors" but one fay someone came alone with a much batter way and it was all changed. I get into arguments all the time with people over phrases like, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Oh how i hate that phrase!!! None of you on the FI-HT forum can say you don't believe in changing whats not broken. your cars for the most part probably ran ok, but you guys wanted more power. one of the most controversial things EVER in the auto industry was the idea of having an AWD "car". auto makers scoffed at the idea until Audi entered a WRC race with the first AWD car and spanked the living S*** out of ever car in the race!!!

Stop be hypocrite and going with the trend, try out new ideas once in a wail.

85

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phatgsr98 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">needs one of those sidwinders on ther to work properly </TD></TR></TABLE>

and one of these only $20 on ebay!!!

MidShipCivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hks85 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you read the entire thing? My point was not to mount an exhaust manifold to a $2000 set of ITBs. you picture was supposed to look dumb. We all pay so much attention to the exhaust flow and the exhaust manifold so why not give the same suspect to the intake side? I know one big prob with that picture is that the runners are far too long for a high reving Honda.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


Lay off the syringes.. Try what you speak.

I will always use ITB with a plenum.

drintegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by electric_rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not saying that I disagree with any of the following posts about better suited turbo sizes for my set up, I comptletely understand where you guys are coming from. but going to a smaller turbo means turning up the boost to get to my given power goals, which inturn means higher intake temps, which means more danger to my stock cylinder walls.
on another note. I thought tony stepped up from the gt28rs. isn't he running something bigger now? </TD></TR></TABLE>

higher boost and smaller turbo will get you what you want. ALso the 9-1 compression does not help. I think tony was running 11-1 compression with the ITB's and a Gt28 turbo. You will suffer at some point in the power band unless you get a 86 mmm b20 .

It is all about what you want and how you want to get there. With the turbo and compression I odn't think the ITB will help that much. My .02

Good luck either way. Hopefully you will prove me wrong.

electric_rex

if neeb be next time I will bump up compression