Boosted 3rd gen Prelude help
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Boosting a 3rd gen Prelude info for the forgotten one
Ok, I read that whole dang thread of the AFC hack. It sounds good depending on who you lkisten to. Cause others put it down. So it's kinda hard to tell what to beleive and what not to. Heres my case. I have the B20A and fixing to make my turbo set-up. I am gonna use a T25 and leave it the way it came 7psi. I also am gonna use a small IC to help it. What should I do for fuel?
Is the AFC with dsm 440cc the way to go and an upgraded fuel pump?
Or is there something better and more reliable?
I hav ebeen running an NOS wet kit I made myself for under $200. i am running a 75 shot with no problems and I haven't upgraded any fuel prts. But now I want boost. So I came here for help. Seemed like the best place. And I can't find much info on here about 3rd gen ludes. Thanx for the help i hope I get.
Modified by slipslap at 1:47 PM 5/5/2004
Is the AFC with dsm 440cc the way to go and an upgraded fuel pump?
Or is there something better and more reliable?
I hav ebeen running an NOS wet kit I made myself for under $200. i am running a 75 shot with no problems and I haven't upgraded any fuel prts. But now I want boost. So I came here for help. Seemed like the best place. And I can't find much info on here about 3rd gen ludes. Thanx for the help i hope I get.
Modified by slipslap at 1:47 PM 5/5/2004
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Re: Boosted 3rd gen Prelude help (slipslap)
I'm not a fan of the AFC hack when you can have a better standalone setup for less. Up until now for the 3G Prelude it's been an even call pricewise, with the AFC hack being simpler which usually gets the deciding call.
Guys, the problem is, the 3G Prelude is a very odd setup. You have OBD0 ECU microcontroller and ECU plugs, but your distributor is OBD1 complaint complete with 24 tooth reluctor. The PK2/PK3 ECU code is different from and incompatible with anything else being developed. The choices to date are:
- $125 OBD1 conversion harness + $50-75 OBD1 ECU and run Uberdata
- cobble some ~$100+ OBD0 distributor on and buy a ~$50 90-91 PM6 and run TE2
Both ways are a tad expensive, and fittting some other OBD0 distributor can be a visual and engineering headache. I've been talking to a guy named Ken S. who has EDM wire burned a 16 tooth reluctor to fit the OBD1 diameter distributor shaft, which will make the 3G Prelude distributor OBD0 complaint, so you only have to purchase the reluctor and 90-91 PM6 ECU. I have his prototype reluctor to test and make sure it works fine, and Ken can take it from there. I'll make sure he ****** the usual Prelude forums, PGMFI, and here.
Guys, the problem is, the 3G Prelude is a very odd setup. You have OBD0 ECU microcontroller and ECU plugs, but your distributor is OBD1 complaint complete with 24 tooth reluctor. The PK2/PK3 ECU code is different from and incompatible with anything else being developed. The choices to date are:
- $125 OBD1 conversion harness + $50-75 OBD1 ECU and run Uberdata
- cobble some ~$100+ OBD0 distributor on and buy a ~$50 90-91 PM6 and run TE2
Both ways are a tad expensive, and fittting some other OBD0 distributor can be a visual and engineering headache. I've been talking to a guy named Ken S. who has EDM wire burned a 16 tooth reluctor to fit the OBD1 diameter distributor shaft, which will make the 3G Prelude distributor OBD0 complaint, so you only have to purchase the reluctor and 90-91 PM6 ECU. I have his prototype reluctor to test and make sure it works fine, and Ken can take it from there. I'll make sure he ****** the usual Prelude forums, PGMFI, and here.
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Re: Boosted 3rd gen Prelude help (slipslap)
yeah being a proud 3rd gen boosted prelude driver all u need for that setup is a 255 walbro pump. there really is no need for injectors unless ur going above like 8-10 psi. and also in my opinion u sould go with the super 60 turbocharger. the t25 is crap. that what u would put on a sohc civic ex. we have 2.0 liter that is capable of some good hp. i currently have an airesearch with a .42-.48..42 is the comp and the turbine is .48 fo quick spool-up. and with thats setup i think the turbo is still small. i have a side mount that i converted to front if u want it.
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Re: Boosted 3rd gen Prelude help (J. Davis)
I would use the VAFC. I have used it and it was quite simple to use on the dyno. It can add an *** load of fuel over stock curve if you need it to.... in your case with the smaller turbo set up you probably wont have to increase it much at all. Althogh it is a different setup a friend is running a T3/T4 on his B16 with 310cc injectors and a walbro and he gets PLENTY of fuel. Street tires on stock motor at 7lbs he ran a 12.4 in the 1/4 with no dyno tuning. Proof that a simple setup can run well. Keep it simple if you can. It costs less, may be all you need, and is simple to tune usually. Good luck
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Re: Boosted 3rd gen Prelude help (mightyhoth)
Are you saying I have to do all these things? <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> $125 OBD1 conversion harness + $50-75 OBD1 ECU and run Uberdata
- cobble some ~$100+ OBD0 distributor on and buy a ~$50 90-91 PM6 and run TE2</TD></TR></TABLE> Thats a bit of money. Are you sure I have OBD0? I thought 90-91 Ludes had OBD1. I need to look at my ECU and confirm, just found this out yesterday. So I haven't had time to check it out.
Or, I can do the AFC with the 440cc injectors, seeing how they direct swap, with a Walbro 255lph in-tank pump for both routes on the pump? Or would 390cc injectors be better?
Option 1= $325-$350
Option 2= $175-$200
I was lookign at this turbo to use, Mazda T25 IHI Turbo Charger which says it's set at 8cfm. Which I hope means 8psi. is this not a good turbo for a low boost daily driven Lude?
I am making my own manifold and downpipe seeing how no one makes them. And it shouldn't be hard. And this turbo seemed the easiest to make a downpipe for. Seeing how I am making everything myself I should keep the price down. Cause I have about $800 to work with. That should get me the turbo, injectors, afc, IC and all my piping. Wouldn't you think?
And meet07 are selling your whole set-up or just the IC? I am interested in it. Will the IC fit up front with my oil cooler? I see a lot of turbo cars and none of themuse oil coolers. Why not? This seems like a simple easy way to extend turbo life and cheap.
- cobble some ~$100+ OBD0 distributor on and buy a ~$50 90-91 PM6 and run TE2</TD></TR></TABLE> Thats a bit of money. Are you sure I have OBD0? I thought 90-91 Ludes had OBD1. I need to look at my ECU and confirm, just found this out yesterday. So I haven't had time to check it out.
Or, I can do the AFC with the 440cc injectors, seeing how they direct swap, with a Walbro 255lph in-tank pump for both routes on the pump? Or would 390cc injectors be better?
Option 1= $325-$350
Option 2= $175-$200
I was lookign at this turbo to use, Mazda T25 IHI Turbo Charger which says it's set at 8cfm. Which I hope means 8psi. is this not a good turbo for a low boost daily driven Lude?
I am making my own manifold and downpipe seeing how no one makes them. And it shouldn't be hard. And this turbo seemed the easiest to make a downpipe for. Seeing how I am making everything myself I should keep the price down. Cause I have about $800 to work with. That should get me the turbo, injectors, afc, IC and all my piping. Wouldn't you think?
And meet07 are selling your whole set-up or just the IC? I am interested in it. Will the IC fit up front with my oil cooler? I see a lot of turbo cars and none of themuse oil coolers. Why not? This seems like a simple easy way to extend turbo life and cheap.
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Re: Boosted 3rd gen Prelude help (slipslap)
Ok guys. I found this on here. I see it's old, but does it work well? Will it work for my set-up? https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=279803
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Re: Boosted 3rd gen Prelude help (slipslap)
slipslap, to do it properly on a budget, I am saying you previously had to pick one of the two options I listed... now there should be a third option along shortly to allow an easier OBD0 conversion of the 3G Prelude. FYI, the 3G Prelude is neither OBD0 or OBD1, but a hybrid of the two. Reread my post above, take a look at OBD0 and OBD1 ECU plugs, and count OBD0 and OBD1 distributor CKP sensor teeth. You'll see what I mean.
I don't see where you'd need the Walbro for sub 300 whp, unless you can link me to a flow chart that proves 3G Lude fuel pumps have less specific output than the 230K mile OEM 58 hp CRX HF fuel pump I use to power my turbo LS.
I don't see where you'd need the Walbro for sub 300 whp, unless you can link me to a flow chart that proves 3G Lude fuel pumps have less specific output than the 230K mile OEM 58 hp CRX HF fuel pump I use to power my turbo LS.
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come slip we had this conversion many of times at pp.com. if your 90-91 prelude came with the b21a1 trim just si and not 2.0si than u have obd1 plugs already and u dont need the conversion harness. all u need is a chipped obd1 non vtec integ ecu would be best. but if your car came with the b20a and says 2.0si u have to get a obd0-1 conversion harness made from boomslang.us where i got mine and a obd1 ecu like stated above. that would be alot easier and less of a hassle then fool with the dizzy. but the way stated above works fine i have ran this setup before perfect ask fuzzygreen from pp.com he'll tell u
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Re: (J. Davis)
So J those are 2 different options? I added them together. Can you explain each a bit better and hook me up with what I need to buy? I don't like going off looking for stuff, not knowing exactly what I need. I am bad about buying the wrong thing thinking it's right. But I am sure my distributor is OBD0. So I would only need the PM6 ( is that an ECU ). I feel I am getting closer to boost. I guess I will forget about the fuel pump for now if you say so. Thanx for the help J and others.
How do I run TE2? Or what do I need to run it? Is that a burner program? So I need a burner.
How do I run TE2? Or what do I need to run it? Is that a burner program? So I need a burner.
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Re: (kyle h.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kyle h. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">preludepower.com
to used turboedit, you would need to convert to a PM6 ecu, out of a crx si, and you would need to wire up a si dizzy as well.</TD></TR></TABLE>i know preludepower.com very well. Thanx though.
So I need the PM6 ECU out of what year CRX Si is that? And I have to get a burner to use that right? or do I send it to someone? Do I need bigger injectors if I use turboedit?
to used turboedit, you would need to convert to a PM6 ecu, out of a crx si, and you would need to wire up a si dizzy as well.</TD></TR></TABLE>i know preludepower.com very well. Thanx though.
So I need the PM6 ECU out of what year CRX Si is that? And I have to get a burner to use that right? or do I send it to someone? Do I need bigger injectors if I use turboedit?
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Re: (slipslap)
Yeah, you either have to convert your distributor to OBD0 to run a 90-91 PM6 (the ones with external chips) or buy a conversion harness to convert your ECU plugs to OBD1 and run any 92-95 non-VTEC ECU.
The reluctor I mentioned is a third way, it converts your Prelude distributor to OBD0 cheaply, OBD0 MPFI distributors are getting hard to find, IME.
The reluctor I mentioned is a third way, it converts your Prelude distributor to OBD0 cheaply, OBD0 MPFI distributors are getting hard to find, IME.
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Re: (J. Davis)
OK, I need an OBD1 convertor harness and then an OBD1 ECU? Then I run that Uberdata. I did look today to confirm my ECU is OBD0 it has just 2 plugs.
Ok, you say I can get the harness and ECU for under $200? Then whats the Uberdata gonna cost me after that? and could you point me in the right direction to get and learn Uberdata? I'm starting to get a headache from this. But I guess it's worth it if I do it right
And you sure my distributor is OBD1? cause it looks different then all the ones on cars newer then mine. Like 4th gens and up. If I did buy a distributor, which one would I need? Cause I do get parts from Honda at cost Why don't you give me a call or me call you? They would help me tremendously!
Ok, you say I can get the harness and ECU for under $200? Then whats the Uberdata gonna cost me after that? and could you point me in the right direction to get and learn Uberdata? I'm starting to get a headache from this. But I guess it's worth it if I do it right
And you sure my distributor is OBD1? cause it looks different then all the ones on cars newer then mine. Like 4th gens and up. If I did buy a distributor, which one would I need? Cause I do get parts from Honda at cost Why don't you give me a call or me call you? They would help me tremendously!
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Re: (slipslap)
what do u mean by having a chipped obd1 integra ecu. what would be chipped??
confusion cause i have a 90 with the b21a and was wondering the same thing
confusion cause i have a 90 with the b21a and was wondering the same thing
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Re: (Meet07)
Uberdata <-- It costs thirty seconds of your life to download, and the message forum costs even more of your life to learn about it.
I am sure your 3G Prelude distributor is OBD1... the only thing that you look at on a Honda distributor is the number of teeth on the CKP reluctor. Aside from 16 teeth/OBD0 and 24 teeth/OBD1, all 88-until Honda distributors are the exact same thing... they have the same sensors and the same pickups and run the same ignitor. (I pretend the 97+ Prelude dist with CKP in the oil pump doesn't exist when I said they are all the same).
I am sure your 3G Prelude distributor is OBD1... the only thing that you look at on a Honda distributor is the number of teeth on the CKP reluctor. Aside from 16 teeth/OBD0 and 24 teeth/OBD1, all 88-until Honda distributors are the exact same thing... they have the same sensors and the same pickups and run the same ignitor. (I pretend the 97+ Prelude dist with CKP in the oil pump doesn't exist when I said they are all the same).
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Re: (J. Davis)
man thats gonna cost some cash. the only conversion harness i found is $150 then an ecu isn't gonna be cheap. Plus teh other stuff I need to run uberdata. Starting to sound like an AFC with injectors might get the nod. Why can't I have an OBD1 ECU? This sux.
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Re: (Prelude91siT)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Prelude91siT »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">come slip we had this conversion many of times at pp.com. if your 90-91 prelude came with the b21a1 trim just si and not 2.0si than u have obd1 plugs already and u dont need the conversion harness. all u need is a chipped obd1 non vtec integ ecu would be best. but if your car came with the b20a and says 2.0si u have to get a obd0-1 conversion harness made from boomslang.us where i got mine and a obd1 ecu like stated above. that would be alot easier and less of a hassle then fool with the dizzy. but the way stated above works fine i have ran this setup before perfect ask fuzzygreen from pp.com he'll tell u</TD></TR></TABLE>So your running the OBD1 ecu with a conversion hrness? Which ECU are you using? And are you usin anything else? Like injectors or anything other then stock? And where do I get a burner, cause I need one right?
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Re: (slipslap)
Ok. New thought. This OBD0 distributor idea sounds better and cheaper. All I need is a distributor and a PM6 ECU? And I reckon I need a burner and eprom chips? This is the part I need to know as well. I just get this, need harness and ecu stuff. But I need this other stuff to tune it right? And how hard would it be to convert a distributor? Hook me up with all the info J. Don't let me go off half cocked. I am trying to help the whole 3rd gen Lude family here, not just myself. Theres not a lot of info out there for us and our forgotten rides.
Also, what cars have the OBD0 distributors? Is it all the 88-91 CRX and Civics, what about Accords?
Hook me up with that test reluctor! And you said PM6 ECU, is a PR4 able to be used as well?
I know you getting tired of me. But all these options we are talking about can be used with my stock fuel system? Or do I need to upgrade any of the parts? Thanx man.
Modified by slipslap at 2:19 PM 5/5/2004
Modified by slipslap at 2:23 PM 5/5/2004
Also, what cars have the OBD0 distributors? Is it all the 88-91 CRX and Civics, what about Accords?
Hook me up with that test reluctor! And you said PM6 ECU, is a PR4 able to be used as well?
I know you getting tired of me. But all these options we are talking about can be used with my stock fuel system? Or do I need to upgrade any of the parts? Thanx man.
Modified by slipslap at 2:19 PM 5/5/2004
Modified by slipslap at 2:23 PM 5/5/2004
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Re: (slipslap)
Now I'm back to the OBD1 option. I found a cncersion harness cheap. And all the OBD0 to OBD1 harnesses are the same right? Meaning a a 0 to 1 harness for a Civic will be the same for my Lude? And the ECU I need is a P75, Pr4, P06? These and then i found this, ART Applied Reader Technology EPROM Programmer Burner. is that what I need to burn chips?
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Re: (slipslap)
I really don't know exact fitment of OBD0 MPFI distributors. Your choices are 88-91 Civic/Integra. Accords were OBD1 in '90, and I'm not sure about anything regarding the 88-89 ones, although that may be an option... or just another 3G Prelude distributor.
The test reluctor still has to be tested, for all I know it is out of alignment and would result in a CEL and fixed timing/limp home mode. Sorry if I'm taking a bit of time with it, but I am very busy and so is the guy with the test car... getting together is difficult.
The 90-91 PM6 is the one that is easiest to chip, it has an external PROM and is very easy to fit with a socket. 88-89 requires a daughterboard, I am unsure of any that are for sale, most made were one-offs. The 90-91 PR4 works with some of the PM6 code, but the more development progresses on the PM6 the more the PR4 glitches and runs wierd, as they aren't 100% compatible hardware platforms like the OBD1 ECUs are.
As far as OBD1 goes, any VTEC or non-VTEC ECU from a 92-95 Civic/Integra, with the exceptiong of the oddball P07 from the Civic VX, will run your car fine. Use whatever falls to hand cheapest.
As far as chip burners go, bang for the buck is a $50 Willem unit, and ease of tune on the fly with minimum fuss is the $85 http://www.moates.net USB burner... it only burns 29C256 chips, due to power limitations since it draws it's power from the USB connection. Translation : it doesn't support the UV erasable 27C256 chips, or a lot of other type chips which an electronics hobbyist would want to play with (hacking DSS, fiddling with oddball electronic kit stuff).
I'm more than happy to help out in any manner possible, I'd like to see more of these cars boosted and surprising people who think they are slow.
The test reluctor still has to be tested, for all I know it is out of alignment and would result in a CEL and fixed timing/limp home mode. Sorry if I'm taking a bit of time with it, but I am very busy and so is the guy with the test car... getting together is difficult.
The 90-91 PM6 is the one that is easiest to chip, it has an external PROM and is very easy to fit with a socket. 88-89 requires a daughterboard, I am unsure of any that are for sale, most made were one-offs. The 90-91 PR4 works with some of the PM6 code, but the more development progresses on the PM6 the more the PR4 glitches and runs wierd, as they aren't 100% compatible hardware platforms like the OBD1 ECUs are.
As far as OBD1 goes, any VTEC or non-VTEC ECU from a 92-95 Civic/Integra, with the exceptiong of the oddball P07 from the Civic VX, will run your car fine. Use whatever falls to hand cheapest.
As far as chip burners go, bang for the buck is a $50 Willem unit, and ease of tune on the fly with minimum fuss is the $85 http://www.moates.net USB burner... it only burns 29C256 chips, due to power limitations since it draws it's power from the USB connection. Translation : it doesn't support the UV erasable 27C256 chips, or a lot of other type chips which an electronics hobbyist would want to play with (hacking DSS, fiddling with oddball electronic kit stuff).
I'm more than happy to help out in any manner possible, I'd like to see more of these cars boosted and surprising people who think they are slow.
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Re: (J. Davis)
Thanx man. That was great. I have decided the OBD-1 conversion route. Found a harness used for cheap. So now an ECU is to be had. I will look into that RTP thing you told me about. And see what to do. Also, all OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion harnesses are the same right? I asked some people and they didn't know for sure. They are all civic crx guys and they weren't sure. I figured they are all the same.
I also need to know if I need some bigger injectors with this route. Or are the stock ones ok? Also, I have the jdm B20A w/o an egr. I get a CEL for this. Will this effect any of my tuning?
I also need to know if I need some bigger injectors with this route. Or are the stock ones ok? Also, I have the jdm B20A w/o an egr. I get a CEL for this. Will this effect any of my tuning?