xrunner86x

I did a search and didn't really find a price tag on blueprinting.

I just had a block built with ERL Superdeck I and then the shop is charging $1050 for engine assembly/disassembly labor. I find it hard to believe it takes 16 hours of labor, so if anyone knows how much it should cost I'd appreciate any info.

Also, does the price of Superdeck include rods and pistons? If you go through the performance builder on ERL's website the PDF about the superdeck says Crower rods and JE pistons.

skratchnsnift

http://www.team-integra.net/fo...age=4

there's some prices there. hope that helps. (google searched)

xrunner86x

Thanks, that helps some, looks like it should be less than $500.

I feel like theyre straight up ripping me off, can anyone confirm or refute this for sure?

b16hybridsol

bluepriting an engine is getting each cylinder to the same tolerances/clearences, which is a time consuming task.

EnzoSpeed

"Blueprinting" is just an outdated term from the 90's that means "properly built motor".

Most places charge about $500 for bottom end assembly (Earl comes to mind).

b16hybridsol

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"Blueprinting" is just an outdated term from the 90's that means "properly built motor".
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i disagree. Blueprinting is having the exact same clearences/measurements on every cylinder. A properly built motor has given tolerences that are allowed (like +/- .001).

One thing that always stuck in my head about blue printing is the spark plugs. How people put spacers under certain plugs so that they are all facing the same way at the same degree

EnzoSpeed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16hybridsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i disagree. Blueprinting is having the exact same clearences/measurements on every cylinder. </TD></TR></TABLE>


What does that even mean?


Get a fresh bore/hone and throw in some CP pistons - your piston to wall clearance is now perfect in every cylinder. Now file the rings to the same gap. Throw in some sized rod/main bearings.

You now have a perfect motor. Bores are all the same. Piston to wall clearances are the same. Ring gaps are the same. Bearing clearances are the same. Bores are not out-of-round. Crank journals are not out of round.

That's what a good engine builder can do. Everything is perfect. I haven't heard the word "blueprint" used in a long time.

b16hybridsol

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


What does that even mean?


Get a fresh bore/hone and throw in some CP pistons - your piston to wall clearance is now perfect in every cylinder. Now file the rings to the same gap. Throw in some sized rod/main bearings.

You now have a perfect motor. Bores are all the same. Piston to wall clearances are the same. Ring gaps are the same. Bearing clearances are the same. Bores are not out-of-round. Crank journals are not out of round.

That's what a good engine builder can do. Everything is perfect. I haven't heard the word "blueprint" used in a long time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

don't take this the wrong way, i'm not trying to insult your intelligence. If you've ever built a motor you'd know that there are tolerences or leways in your measurements.

Say you are on the rod bearings, it would be exceptable for one or more of those bearings to be +/-.0005 from your base measurement. So your clearences could come out something like
cyl1 cyl2 cyl3 cyl4
.0015 .002 .002 .0015

where as if that same motor were being blueprinted all specs would be the same for ever cylinder
cyl1 cyl2 cyl3 cyl4
.0015 .0015 .0015 .0015

EnzoSpeed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16hybridsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you've ever built a motor you'd know that there are tolerences or leways in your measurements. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I've built my last few.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Say you are on the rod bearings, it would be exceptable for one or more of those bearings to be +/-.0005 from your base measurement.

where as if that same motor were being blueprinted all specs would be the same for ever cylinder</TD></TR></TABLE>


Who would build a motor with different bearing specs than what they consider ideal? It's as easy as getting a different color bearing. I know that I personally made sure every bearing spec on my motor was exactly what I wanted.

I don't know any good engine builders that build a motor otherwise. The "Haynes" way of rebuilding a motor isn't what I meant when I said "a properly built motor." If you go to a good builder, everything will be "blueprinted".

Hulk22

yeah it sucks alittle i paid 1100 for sleave block pistons then 1000 for my mech to take my block out put together new block and drop it in the car.

The Weather Man

Well - blueprinting is just a word that adds to the price. I would assume blueprinting would also include machine work - like line honing the main caps and what not. I'm sure thats not included in a typical engine build. From my experience, most people don't take their time when building an engine. They match up the rod caps with the wrong rods, put the main caps in the wrong places.......**** like that. This is all important stuff - and most people don't do it.

I mean, honestly - how many people do you know really take a true bar to test for deck warpage? I was working on a 305 yesterday, finally decided to pull out the true bar, and i discovered that that thing had some major warpage - **** that the naked eye can't see. How many of you record the torque needed to detorque your bolts???? probably no one. THere are a lot of necessary steps to a proper engine build - but everyone takes short cuts.

Anyway, I say blueprinting - its just an automatic labor fee - guaranteeing that they'll take they're time, doing it right.

but if you go into a shop, just ask the right questions. Ask them what measurements they take - and ask them for a copy when they're finished.

purpleh22

Actually you won't see much blueprinting done on many engines outside professional racing. The term 'blueprinting' relates to matching actual enginr and component dimensions and tolerances to engineering designs or blueprints. (ideal design) This could include align boring to insure proper deck height or distance from crank centerline to the deck or top of the block, insuring parallel cylinder bores. uniform cylinder bore etc., etc., to insuring that the specifications on block alloy is proper, bolt threads are as stated in the blueprint bolts actually meet strength specifications, balancing to stated specifications, 'cc'ing combustion chambers in the head and so on.
Currently many professional shops probably include bearing and piston to wall clearancing as well as checking deck surface, crank straightness and alignment. Be sure you ask exactly what is included in any 'blueprinting' done by your shop.
If the shop looks like a disaster area, their work may reflect the same lack of care and preciseness when it comes to building your engine. If the shop looks like you could eat off the floor, they probably take some pride in their work. get multiple references and check with the Better Business Bureau (online) to see about complaints and un resolved complaints. You're spending good money and you deserve decent work. Ask about a completion date and get a written estimate. Make sure any committments or changes are in writing.

urbansi

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16hybridsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


One thing that always stuck in my head about blue printing is the spark plugs. How people put spacers under certain plugs so that they are all facing the same way at the same degree </TD></TR></TABLE>

Its called indexing, and its quite important and very very overlooked

Bud's Machine

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by purpleh22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the shop looks like a disaster area, their work may reflect the same lack of care and preciseness when it comes to building your engine. If the shop looks like you could eat off the floor, they probably take some pride in their work. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The flip side is: why do they have enough time to polish and shine the floor? either they don't have the work or they're labor rates are high.

We have right now 41 custom engine builds going in a shop of 4. I would trust a shop that is bursting at the seems with work but looks a little cluttered over a shop that looks deserted.

Take your time, ask your buddies, ask local repair shops, who does they're machine work. reputation in the engine biz is hard to get. cleaning the floors is easy.

purpleh22

Maybe there is a valid middle ground but you could make the same comments about your house - like, I'm too busy raising a family to keep the place clean or healthy. I would always prefer working with someone who was meticulous over someone disorganized or less careful/particular. Being so busy that you don't have time to keep things squared away can lead to lost parts, mixed parts with various jobs, scratched or damaged components, poor care of assemblys that need to be kept clean, steps that were missed when processes were being completed, (align boring)etc.
I'm not guessing, I've had all this happen with various shops, from local to big name, out of state shops. Take your work to disorganized shops, I'll stick with the ones that are cleaner, organized, have good reps. and good records with the better business bureau.
Hey - by now it's a personal preferance - may not be as important to others.