lke2drvgsr

just finished putting together my b18c setup, 9:1 JE pistons, eagle rods, ACL bearings. the motor sounds like a damn diesel and it sounds like something's knocking inside the motor. i've spoke to many people about this and had them listen to it, they all don't know what it is. i checked the oil jet squirters (which i'm just gonna take out and plug tomorrow since i don't need them for forged internals), but they looked OK... no scoring on the cyl walls, no scoring/scratching on the crank, nothing. everything looked completely fine, but that noise just doesn't sound healthy.. sounds like the thing is just gonna blow up...

i've searched and searched about rod knock and piston slap, but everyone says that with those the noise goes away after the motor is warmed up.. mine only makes MORE noise when the engine gets warmer... i really don't know what to do.


btw, i'm throwing codes: idle air control valve, air intake temperatur, and o2 sensor... also, the oil light is coming on as well (that means low oil pressure right?) there's no oil leaks anywhere from what i can see..

please help! sorry for the long post

slowpokesi

is everything torqued down to specs, i hope you didnt over tighten anything, maybe you just have something vibrating around shrug

lke2drvgsr

followed the helms like the torah. (im jewish ) can't imagine anything is outta spec.

Islandspeed

What's the clearance between the pistons and the cylinders?

The reason I ask is that a friend of mine was running a boosted B20 with forged pistons at 6 thousandths clearance and the damn thing sounded like a Volkswagen TDI at -40 on start up. Even with the car warming up to temp he still had piston noise. Food for thought.......

lke2drvgsr

how would i measure that w/the motor assembled and in the car.. i don't have time to pull it again and disassemble. i can't imagine the clearance is gonna be far off, since i asked benson to sleeve to 84mm and bought 84mm JE's..... i'm gonna be pissed if they're off.


edit: we had to hammer the pistons down the cylinders, so it's not like they freely moved... pretty hard to crank it too.

Islandspeed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lke2drvgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how would i measure that w/the motor assembled and in the car.. i don't have time to pull it again and disassemble. i can't imagine the clearance is gonna be far off, since i asked benson to sleeve to 84mm and bought 84mm JE's..... i'm gonna be pissed if they're off.


edit: we had to hammer the pistons down the cylinders, so it's not like they freely moved... pretty hard to crank it too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can't measure that with the engine assembled in the car. You need to do it when building the engine. Just because you bought 84mm pistons and bored to 84mm doesn't mean that the clearances are perfect. From what I understand the ideal clearance for forged pistons is 3/1000ths. This kills piston slap apparently. It might not seem like a lot but engine building is not a matter of inches.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

That sucks big time. Your going to have to take the motor out and re-measure everything - something IS out of whack.
Did you plastigauge your bearings? What are your main and rod bearing clearances?
Your def not supposed to hammer in your pistons. Maybe tap them in at the most. If u had to really hammer them in then they were way too tight.


Modified by Muckman at 12:08 AM 12/11/2004

lke2drvgsr

bearing clearances were to spec.. all within .015-.02 or whatever the specs were, but they were good.

we didn't hafta HAMMER them in, we tapped them in, you can crank the motor by hand (using a wrench obviously) so they're not in there TOO tight.. even if they were in TOO tight, i wouldn't have piston slap then...

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Seriously get an oil pressure gauge. it could be knocking instead of piston slap - ie spun bearing. how long have you let the motor idle or how far have you driven it? and has the oil light been on constant?

It sounds like you've dropped the oil pan. Did you thoroughly check for metal shavings?

lke2drvgsr

i guess ill hafta buy a gauge. i don't see how it could be a spun bearing, we made sure every single one was on correctly and had the correct clearances.

as far as driving goes, i've driven it about 50 miles or so, it didn't start making the noise until the very end of the 50 miles. the oil light comes on only when it starts getting warmed up. when it's idling, the light stays on constant. when it's revved, the light blinks.

there were no metal shavings that i could find, although the oil was brownish and looked pretty shitty. it wasn't clear, but it wasn't black on the other hand, it just looked strange.


edit: as far as the oil pressure gauge is concerned, can i just buy a standard autometer gauge for like 35 bucks, or does it hafta have all that wideband **** or whatever i need for several hundred? the one very big weak point of my knowledge is electrical ****

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

hehe no. wideband and oil gauge have nothing in common.

You can run out and buy the cheapest oil pressure gauge you can find if you want. A mechanical gauge will be sufficient as this is primarily for troubleshooting. You can find what you need at Autozone or Pepboys. Or buy a better gauge with electronic pressure sensor if you want to keep it long term.

Is this a new oil pump? Drop the oil pan again. This time thoroughly clean out the bottom with paper towels. Sometimes metal shavings are very hard to see when submerged in only 1/4" of oil. And while your down there, inspect the oil pick up. And check for dents in the oil pan and for clearance between the pickup and oil pan.

lke2drvgsr

there's a ton of microscopic metal shavings that are extremely small, but those should be normal for the first couple miles after a fresh build. one of the squirters had some chipping on it, maybe from the crank..

since ace hardware didn't have any m8 .5 pitch bolts, i just had to use the oem ones... i plugged them up with hondabond, then used a shitload of teflon tape on them and tightened them down good. i'm gonna start it tomorrow and see how it runs... thanks much for the help


oh and also, my oil is like a shiny silver metallic color... pretty strange eh?

Go Fast Civic

Sorry I didn't have time to read all of the posts, what did you say your oil pressure was? Because if its low then you could be having problems with your oil pump, even if its brand new. MY buddie just finished building a 4G63 and his oil pump went 2 weeks after the install. Correct me if I'm wrong, but low oil pressure will cause knocking.

Flr Power

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lke2drvgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there's a ton of microscopic metal shavings that are extremely small, but those should be normal for the first couple miles after a fresh build. one of the squirters had some chipping on it, maybe from the crank..

since ace hardware didn't have any m8 .5 pitch bolts, i just had to use the oem ones... i plugged them up with hondabond, then used a shitload of teflon tape on them and tightened them down good. i'm gonna start it tomorrow and see how it runs... thanks much for the help


oh and also, my oil is like a shiny silver metallic color... pretty strange eh?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Quote of the year!!!

lke2drvgsr

well the sound is still there. i plugged the oil squirters and fired it up today and it sounded perfect. then after letting it run for 10 minutes, it made the sound again. it only does it when the motor gets warm, and the sound gets worse as it gets warmer... there were no knicks, scratches, dents, NOTHING in the motor. the bottom end looked PERFECT.


but i am leaking a SHITLOAD of oil, it's all over the back of the engine bay dripping all over the place. i'm gonna check on that tomorrow, and i'm buying an oil pressure gauge because the oil pressure is STILL too low.




my dad says it's 99% likely it's not a spun bearing, it just sounds like metal banging against metal and sounds like a diesel. so i dunno what else to check.

nonvtecD

Well, if you're leaking oil like crazy and have low pressure then your bearings are getting starved for oil, maybe not spun but might be some rod knock going on. FYI also, forged pistons shouldn't have tight clearances at all and it is normal for them to slap a little before warmed up. Not saying that is your problem, but just for reference.

johnzm

your motor is toast. YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE METAL IN YOUR OIL PAN ever!
the last time i saw metallic in my oil, i ground 2 mains and 4 rockers to ****

take that motor out and take it apart. time to start over.

2bars

If i were you ,I be stop running it, Drop the oil pan and pull the couple main and rod cap and check the bearings sound like you spun a bearing.

lke2drvgsr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your motor is toast. YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE METAL IN YOUR OIL PAN ever!
the last time i saw metallic in my oil, i ground 2 mains and 4 rockers to ****

take that motor out and take it apart. time to start over.</TD></TR></TABLE>


from what i've heard it's normal to have microscopic shavings, from the fresh honing or pistons etc.

and i doubt it's anything in the head as we never disassembled it and it worked perfect before we took it off.


one thing to note... we forgot to time it we're gonna do that tomorrow, cuz hopefully it's just spark slap or detonation...

lke2drvgsr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D15B7turbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">\ FYI also, forged pistons shouldn't have tight clearances at all and it is normal for them to slap a little before warmed up. Not saying that is your problem, but just for reference.</TD></TR></TABLE>


as stated before, the motor is fine before it's warmed up. when it gets warmed up, that's when the knocking happens.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lke2drvgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there's a ton of microscopic metal shavings that are extremely small, but those should be normal for the first couple miles after a fresh build. one of the squirters had some chipping on it, maybe from the crank..

oh and also, my oil is like a shiny silver metallic color... pretty strange eh?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dude I dont know if your in denial or what. But when you have a "ton of microscopic metal shavings that are extremely small" in your oil pan, the only place that comes from is from your bearings! That is NOT normal!

And if your crank is touching your oil squirters in anyway, thats not good either. Are the squirters cracked? That could be the source of your oil pressure loss. Regardless it is NOT good either.

And how can your dad be 99% sure that its not a spun bearing? If you want to be 99% sure about anything, you should probably actually inspect something rather than ignore all the symptoms. Still havent dropped the rods or crank to inspect the bearings.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Oh heres my oil pan with "lots of microscopic metal shavings" in it. I spun the #1 rod bearing. Strange huh?

lke2drvgsr

the crank wasn't touching the squirters, there were no marks on the crank.

as for the shavings, they weren't even visible. showing me a picture of your oil pan won't accomplish anything since i've stated before that you can't even see the shavings, but you can BARELY feel them by dunking your hand in the oil and squeezing your fingers against each other.

if it were a bearing, i would have heard it by now.

quick_DC5

Have you even checked piston to wall clearance before you put the bottom end together? Also when did the oil pressure light start coming on? From the beginning or after 50 miles when the knock started happening? What do you mean by "the oil light comes on only when it starts getting warmed up. when it's idling, the light stays on constant. when it's revved, the light blinks." So you mean the light is always on? The way you explained it doesnt make sense. Maybe you dont even have enough oil in the motor. How did you plug the squirters? You said you used the OEM bolts, I dont understand how you plugged them using the OEM bolts. In my opinion, it sounds like youve spun a bearing.

crispydee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by yoboslayer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if it were a bearing, i would have heard it by now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you carnt hear anything what are you complaining like a little girl for about the noise it makes?
You have been running the engine with the oil light on for f##k sake what do you expect? Most people would have seen the oil light, killed the motor and striped it to see what is wrong not keep starting/driving it in hope the problem has gone away.

People are giving you advice here, how many people have said a spun bearing and you wont check because your dad says he's 99% sure its not? Is he superman and can see through the block?