CRX SIR

???


Modified by CRX SIR at 12:04 PM 5/2/2007

88 rex

I don't have numbers, but it's not a bad idea if it's the powerband you desire. I'd guesstimate somewhere b/w 225-250 with a good tune.

CRX SIR

im lookin to use the car as daily driver maybe and for road race and mayb the tracks here and there....also looking for some good numbers at the tracks...looking into superchargin and also looked at turbocharging the b16b but im still tryin to decide???

blinx9900

wait wait wiat, what kind of supercharger? roots or centrifugal? cause there is no way youll have 225-250 with a roots.

bamf3000

bump for numbers

CRX SIR

centrifugal

blinx9900

ok yeah then about 220whp id say... basically a little less than a turbo set up on the same car.

88 rex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wait wait wiat, what kind of supercharger? roots or centrifugal? cause there is no way youll have 225-250 with a roots.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What's your reasoning? I think 225 is attainable.

IMO, roots&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;vortech.

I'd go turbo before vortech.

blinx9900

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88 rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's your reasoning? I think 225 is attainable.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ive seen many roots type blowers dynoed on b-series engines and they usually add about 35-55whp, even at 12psi they still cant break the 200whp mark. roots type blowers efficiency falls off as rpm increses and as boost increases thats why you rarely see a roots type running over 12psi. if its on a street car and you just want a little more low end then its a great idea, but for rr i say NO WAY.

also dont forget roots type usually are NOT intercooled, so that also greatly reduces there power production, trust me, you wont break the 200 mark with a roots type on a stock block.

[/QUOTE]<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88 rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMO, roots&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;vortech.</TD></TR></TABLE>

and know i would like to know your reasoning on this.

CRX SIR

so would you guys reccomend turbocharging more than supercharging???

blinx9900

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX SIR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so would you guys reccomend turbocharging more than supercharging???</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes

CRX SIR

you have a ballpark price on how much i would spend on turboing my b16b wit stock internals???

blinx9900

it really depends on what you get, assuming you already have a good clutch and exhuast about ~2000 to do it right.

88 rex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

ive seen many roots type blowers dynoed on b-series engines and they usually add about 35-55whp, even at 12psi they still cant break the 200whp mark. roots type blowers efficiency falls off as rpm increses and as boost increases thats why you rarely see a roots type running over 12psi. if its on a street car and you just want a little more low end then its a great idea, but for rr i say NO WAY.

also dont forget roots type usually are NOT intercooled, so that also greatly reduces there power production, trust me, you wont break the 200 mark with a roots type on a stock block.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

and know i would like to know your reasoning on this.


[/QUOTE]

I hope you're not lumping all b series into one category, but you can easily get 250+ on a B18c. B16a's I am guessing to be in the 220 whp range with a decent supporting cast of mods and a good tune. FWIW, If you aren't intercooling your set-up then you are seriously hand cuffing yourself.

ALSO, roots blower all day over the turbo on the road course. More reliable, w/intercooler the heat is kept in check, linear power and FLAT torque curve.


And the vortech has all the negatives of a supercharger AND turbocharger lumped into one unit. Parasitic loss and lag. Roots will give you plenty down low and enough to hold its own near the top.

FI w/o any kind of intercooling is a waste, IMO of course.

doood

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88 rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ALSO, roots blower all day over the turbo on the road course. More reliable, w/intercooler the heat is kept in check, linear power and FLAT torque curve.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

you can get the same thing with a properly sized turbo

88 rex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by doood &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you can get the same thing with a properly sized turbo</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is true, but the simplicity of the supercharger makes it a bit more reliable. Not saying turbo is bad for the track, just needs to well kept and dialed in.

doood

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88 rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is true, but the simplicity of the supercharger makes it a bit more reliable. Not saying turbo is bad for the track, just needs to well kept and dialed in. </TD></TR></TABLE>

the same can be said about a supercharger

Veris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ive seen many roots type blowers dynoed on b-series engines and they usually add about 35-55whp, even at 12psi they still cant break the 200whp mark. roots type blowers efficiency falls off as rpm increses and as boost increases thats why you rarely see a roots type running over 12psi. if its on a street car and you just want a little more low end then its a great idea, but for rr i say NO WAY.

also dont forget roots type usually are NOT intercooled, so that also greatly reduces there power production, trust me, you wont break the 200 mark with a roots type on a stock block.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lot and lots of mis-information in regards to power levels.

An unintercooled b16b would make about 225whp @ 10 psi with a good tune (hondata/crome/uberdata). Intercooled around 250whp .

Hondata made "260whp" on a stock unintercooled ITR running a JRSC. It was on a dynapack so it was probably more like 250whp. It on their site... Point is lots of people make well over 200whp on a stock block. People regularly do it on 6 psi!

My setup is running around 270whp (2L GSR) and that is at 3000ft air density. At Sea level it would be close to 300whp.

300whp is about the limit on the M62 blower. If you need more peak power then a turbo is the only way to go. Atleast until the new TVS blowers are released later then year (good to 20psi vs the current 12-14psi).

My site (below) has a bunch of data on JRSC setups in the tech section. Feel free to look through it.


Modified by Veris at 7:07 PM 5/2/2007

rmcdaniels

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by doood &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you can get the same thing with a properly sized turbo</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you can't. It's a common misconception though. You can make it look like that on a dyno, but in real life every time you roll on the throttle you have to spool the turbo and deal with the torque ramp that comes from charging the combustion chambers from a blower that delivers air mass in a non-linear progression to the motor. It can be modulated with your foot or a gear-based boost controller, but it never goes away. A belt driven blower provides air mass linearly with engine RPM's, so rolling on the throttle yields perfectly consistent and very controllable power. That's not to say that there aren't drawbacks to supercharging, but I've tracked both and the SC wins for controllable power.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wait wait wiat, what kind of supercharger? roots or centrifugal? cause there is no way youll have 225-250 with a roots.</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL, I made over 200 (on a DynoJet) at 11 PSI on a beat-up blower on a stock B16A with the ring lands cracked, 30% leak down, blowing a smoke screen every time I boosted, and eating a quart of oil every 100 miles. On a built motor I make a whole lot more.


To the OP:

A B16B would be great for supercharging, it already makes 184, and with 10.8:1CR and the small displacement (SC's like high CR and don't like to move a lot of air), you should easily make 225-250. It would be a lot of fun as a DD, but so would a turbo. Just be real careful with the tuning, the ring lands snap like twigs if you get much detonation.

For road racing the big problem will be heat soak, the blower assembly can't dissipate heat as fast as it makes it. The LHT water/air intercooler fixed this problem for me, I road race my JRSC car without any IAT problems. I have problems with belts, but I overdrive my blower a lot to charge a 2.2L motor, you shouldn't have anywhere near as much problems boosting a 1.6L motor. Personally I prefer a SC for road racing, but opinions vary. Unfortunately a lot of people on H-T have strong opinions about things that they don't know much about, but that's H-T.

For drag racing, I like a turbo. There are people who have run 11's in street cars on a JRSC, but it's a lot easier with a turbo.

blinx9900

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> LOL, I made over 200 (on a DynoJet) at 11 PSI on a beat-up blower on a stock B16A with the ring lands cracked, 30% leak down, blowing a smoke screen every time I boosted, and eating a quart of oil every 100 miles. On a built motor I make a whole lot more.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

lucky you, that must have been a large blower. what kind of fuel were you using for that?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Veris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lot and lots of mis-information in regards to power levels.

An unintercooled b16b would make about 225whp @ 10 psi with a good tune (hondata/crome/uberdata). Intercooled around 250whp .

Hondata made "260whp" on a stock unintercooled ITR running a JRSC. It was on a dynapack so it was probably more like 250whp. It on their site... Point is lots of people make well over 200whp on a stock block. People regularly do it on 6 psi!

My setup is running around 270whp (2L GSR) and that is at 3000ft air density. At Sea level it would be close to 300whp.

300whp is about the limit on the M62 blower. If you need more peak power then a turbo is the only way to go. Atleast until the new TVS blowers are released later then year (good to 20psi vs the current 12-14psi).

My site (below) has a bunch of data on JRSC setups in the tech section. Feel free to look through it.


Modified by Veris at 7:07 PM 5/2/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

its not misinformation, its my experience, and 260 on a dynapack is actually more like 220 on a dynojet. and ofcourse hondata works with jrsc so there going to inflate there claims, probably used 94+oct and super aggressive timing.

i prolly should have mentioned this before but im in socal, all my claims were based on the fact that 91oct is all you have to work with.

88 rex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

lucky you, that must have been a large blower. what kind of fuel were you using for that?


</TD></TR></TABLE>
There is only one blower for B18c/B16a/b..........M62.

Veris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
its not misinformation, its my experience, and 260 on a dynapack is actually more like 220 on a dynojet. and ofcourse hondata works with jrsc so there going to inflate there claims, probably used 94+oct and super aggressive timing.

i prolly should have mentioned this before but im in socal, all my claims were based on the fact that 91oct is all you have to work with. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It is missinformation as <U>it is incorrect</U>...

If it is your 1st hand experience then you can't tune. If it is 3rd persion experience then they can't tune... My entire post was talking about pump gas stock timing, standard timing retard .5/psi (in vtec and intercooled).

I'm not hear to argue with you; mysetup speaks for itself.

As an asside: Dynapacks read 5-7% higher not 15-20%.

rmcdaniels

It was a regular JRSC M62 on 93 octane NC pump gas.


A JRSC setup can make good power, but they usually don't. I think that it's because there are so few of them compared to turbo setups and too many builders and tuners don't fully understand how differently a Roots blower works with a motor compared to a turbo. It boils down to the nature of the device, a SC moves air mass at a rate that is constant/RPM, while a turbo doesn't. That has a lot of consequences for how cylinders are filled at different loads, how power is produced, and how to build/tune a motor for optimum operation with a SC vice a turbo. I've built a number of different turbo and SC setups and I'm starting to get a handle on it, and Veris, who posted earlier is also very knowledgeable about it.

Turbo and SC builds have different requirements for making power. My turbo motors have CR's of 8.5-9:1, which is great for a turbo build because I can get it tuned to make the same power as a higher CR motor, but it's safer because of the uneven nature of how cylinders are filled at different RPM and engine load points. With a SC I can't change the rate of airmass movement for a given load point/RPM, so my options are different if I want to make power, but I also don't have to worry about some problems associated with non-linear airmass delivery, so I run CR's of 10.5-11:1 with no problems. That's just one example, here are a few others:

Dyno pulls; with a JRSC you can only do 1-3 before the blower assembly is heat soaked. By the fourth pull (and sometimes before then, depending on the setup) your results are useless. It takes a long time, generally at least 15 minutes of non-loaded operation with good air flow over the motor, to get the assembly cooled to the point where you can get a couple more pulls out of it. Before I got an air/water intercooler that let my blower assembly dissipate more heat than it makes, I limited dyno pulls to 2 pulls per 15 minutes. It was a PITA for tuning when we needed to make 10 or more dyno pulls, but it got the correct results. With a proper LHT setup, I can make back-to-back pulls all day.

Cam geometry/timing and head port/valve configuration; too much to go into here, but I've done a lot of work on this and the requirements are very different for turbo and SC.

Tuning; I'm not the expert, JDogg does all of my tuning, but it is very different for a motor that I build for turbo and one that I build for SC. One of the reasons that JDogg does all my tuning is that he understands this after tuning a lot of different turbo and SC setups and knows what to do to make a SC setup work correctly.

There's more, but it's taken me years to figure it out and I'm not going to get everything onto one H-T post. Here's a dyno (DynoJet) scan from a B-series motor that I put a SC on, running 8 PSI from a JRSC kit with an M62 blower:



That motor actually wasn't the best for SC, it was originally built for all-motor and had some issues with the piston design, but I ran it for 10,000 miles in my DD until I got caught in a flood and hydro-locked it, and it was a lot of fun. I built another motor, but we had fuel problems on initial start up and the cylinders got washed in the first few minutes, causing the pistons to scuff the cylinder walls hard enough to transfer material, ruining the ring seal. We still put it on the dyno (blowing smoke like crazy and with 20%-40% leakdown on all cylinders), where it made 275 WHP (DynoJet) at 8000 RPM on 6.5 PSI from an M62 on a JRSC kit. New pistons are on order, and we got the fueling problem fixed, so hopefully I'll be back at the track soon.

The big limitation of a SC setup is that B-series motors spin CCW, limiting the selection of blowers that we can use to CCW-spinning blowers, which most are not. Now that it's getting easy to stuff a K-series in a EG/DC chassis, I should be picking up my K24 this weekend. It'll be supercharged with a Roots blower. It spins CW. I'm looking for 500 WHP

CRX SIR

what kind of setup and what not would i need for a supercharged b16b to run 11s?

rmcdaniels

Ask in the JRSC thread, at least one guy in there did it recently, but you'll need nitrous to make it happen.

https://honda-tech.com/zero...e=320