boostincoupe

I'm just curious if there is still a good number of high-hp Honda setups that choose to tune on regular pump gas/race gas combos, vs. converting to E85.

My tuner wants me to switch to E85 for this upcoming season's ~400-450whp build (sleeved ITR, maxed-out GT3255E), and I've already bought the 1000cc injectors I'll need for it.

But my question is, for those of you who haven't converted to E85: what's your reasoning for sticking with pump/race gas combos?

96 GSR-T

Run E85 on your street tune, and C16 for the strip, if you have E85 near you, why not use it? Its cheaper than 93 octane, and is a safer fuel to use for a FI car IMO over pump gas. Most setups are gas limited to 450whp or so on pump gas for safety, I would rather run a higher octane cheaper safer fuel, that happens to make more power, even though you get less fuel economy, than some random 93-91 octane from my local gas station.

PHDZINE

Im making slightly over 800whp with C16 and next season I plan on making close to 900WHP or maybe if I'm lucky over 900WHP on C16. With E85, you need alot more fuel to make an equivalent amount of power on C16. Right now I'm on 4X1600cc injectors. Without doing the math, I would probably need a 8x1000cc injectors set up to make what I'm making now. Not worth the hassel....just my $0.02.

96 GSR-T

yea but your all race (assuming 42R) drag car is wayyy different than his 1000cc GT3255E Street/Strip car, not even a comparison. My .02 says apples n oranges. To answer the OP's question, still probably 90+% of the boosted Honda's still run Gasoline, those that are smart and happen to have a E85 pump near them, are using it. Lets see $2.60 a gallon or $10 a gallon......hmmmm

batboyvaj

just make sure when you have it tuned your tuner can get your crap to idle correctly so you don't end up like i did

but seriously...why not just go e85...burns cooler, resist knock way better, all pluses so why not?

PHDZINE

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea but your all race (assuming 42R) drag car is wayyy different than his 1000cc GT3255E Street/Strip car, not even a comparison. My .02 says apples n oranges. To answer the OP's question, still probably 90+% of the boosted Honda's still run Gasoline, those that are smart and happen to have a E85 pump near them, are using it. Lets see $2.60 a gallon or $10 a gallon......hmmmm</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you read the original question from the OP...Im not trying to compare anything. I'm giving my opinion on why I chose gas (C16) over E85 and by the way I still drive my car on the streets on occasions and its a Innovative T72.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostincoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm just curious if there is still a good number of high-hp Honda setups that choose to tune on regular pump gas/race gas combos, vs. converting to E85.

My tuner wants me to switch to E85 for this upcoming season's ~400-450whp build (sleeved ITR, maxed-out GT3255E), and I've already bought the 1000cc injectors I'll need for it.

But my question is, for those of you who haven't converted to E85: what's your reasoning for sticking with pump/race gas combos? </TD></TR></TABLE>

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PHDZINE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im making slightly over 800whp with C16 and next season I plan on making close to 900WHP or maybe if I'm lucky over 900WHP on C16. With E85, you need alot more fuel to make an equivalent amount of power on C16. Right now I'm on 4X1600cc injectors. Without doing the math, I would probably need a 8x1000cc injectors set up to make what I'm making now. Not worth the hassel....just my $0.02.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your math is pretty ***** on. 1600x4 = 6400cc of fuel. 6400x1.3 = 8320cc of fuel needed for E85. 8320/4 = 2080cc on 4 injectors or 1040cc on 8 injectors. Don't forget the fact you will need to run a pump that supports around 1200whp to work with those 8 1000cc injectors.

The main reason people don't run E85 on high HP setups is because once you have to start buying serious parts for your fuel system, the cost effectiveness drops dramatically. Not to mention I think the limits of E85 are lower than C16.

I'd think E85 would be best to use up to the point where you need to start buying fancy parts. So figure once 1600cc injectors and a basic fuel pump setup won't keep up with your demands, you might as well run regular gas.

PHDZINE

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Your math is pretty ***** on. 1600x4 = 6400cc of fuel. 6400x1.3 = 8320cc of fuel needed for E85. 8320/4 = 2080cc on 4 injectors or 1040cc on 8 injectors. Don't forget the fact you will need to run a pump that supports around 1200whp to work with those 8 1000cc injectors.

The main reason people don't run E85 on high HP setups is because once you have to start buying serious parts for your fuel system, the cost effectiveness drops dramatically. Not to mention I think the limits of E85 are lower than C16.

I'd think E85 would be best to use up to the point where you need to start buying fancy parts. So figure once 1600cc injectors and a basic fuel pump setup won't keep up with your demands, you might as well run regular gas.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks for doing the math and your outlook on why not to use E85. It's just not cost effective.

96 GSR-T

I am estimating 75%+ of this site will never make enough power to say the only thing holding me up now is the E85, maybe the OP can clarify what a "high hp" setup is? Is it 600, 700, 800? I never stated nor has anybody else that I have seen that E85 pwns C16, but 700whp can and has been made on it, so if I can make power on a fuel that cost 300% cheaper than the traditional C16 route, I will use it. Not all of us have parts thrown at us because we own shops or race in events, so every little bit helps. If you have a 42R on your car, E85 is obviously out of the question for you, UNLESS you run on the street, in which case it WILL benefit you, and be much safer and cheaper that running dirty silty gas from the bottom of a 20yr old tank. As far as I know, ALL E85 tanks are new and if they are not new, they are thoroughly cleaned and sealed prior to use, so not as much worries about pumping **** into your tank, its has many other perks. To each his own

nowtype

I don't even know why you bothered typing that as I already answered this question adequately.

Past 650whp, E85 is no longer cost effective.

What happens past 650whp?
1600cc injectors are maxed so you need 8 injectors or bigger than 1600cc injectors which I don't think are available. That means you have to jump to a standalone EMS that can support 8 injectors as Honda ECUs wont. You should have some fuel pump room if you run dual Walboros or bosch unit but that isn't a small amount of money either. A single 255 pump will be good till about 500whp so dual 255 pumps is a $400 investment or so. A bosch fuel pump is around the same I believe. So in the end, past 500whp, you need to spend an extra $400. After 650whp, you need to spend thousands.

$400 more isn't too bad. 105 octane regular gasoline is $6.00 I believe. E85 is $2.00 right? 300% like you said. So then you;d need to buy 100 gallons to break even. But then remember E85 doesn't have as much energy as gasoline so then take that 100 gallons and multiply it by 1.3 so its actually 130 gallons of fuel. That's not too bad.

Now past 650whp, we are talking about at least $2000-3000 invested with new EMS, fuel lines, pumps, injectors, intake manifold, ect. So that means I need to buy 500-750 gallons of fuel to break even. Again, inflate the numbers by 1.3, 650-975 gallons.

So run those numbers and see if you end up saving money and how long it would take. I really think you are seeing this "short time" savings that occurs every time you fill up but are not calculating the actual savings.

96 GSR-T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Past 650whp, E85 is no longer cost effective.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

And I totally agree with you, but 1600's and a bosch will get you more that 650whp, I made 600 on 1000's and twin 255hp's and a -8 feed, my friend made 600 on my 1000's a single 255 and stock lines. I also stated E85 is good to a certain point, and then obviously C16 is the better choice, but for his GT32, I feel E85 is his best choice.

PHDZINE

This argument can probably go on for days but I'm seeing both sides now...The OP asked a very vague question "high-HP setups" ...that could be any number depending on who you are.
I see 96 GSR-T point of view...on a 4 x 1600cc injector set up it could be very cost effective and still make around 650 WHP (which could be considered pretty "high-HP")
Then I see nowtype point of view...which was my point of view from the beginning... "high_HP" to me is almost maxing the turbo out (in my case a T72) and having the fuel system to support it...in this case e85 would require 8 x 1600cc and the right components to support it... fuel pump, fuel management, etc. Not making it very cost effective and losing streetabilty.

to both you guys...you both have valid point...it just depends on what side of the fence you are on

da_dude

I like e85. Only thing it suck is that fuel runs out alot quicker than regular fuel. Hoping for a 400HP single cam next year but still deciding if I should stick with regular fuel or do E85 again. If I settle with regular fuel than 400hp is pretty much out of the picture without some race gas.

HiProfile

Well one reason people with street/strip cars run E85 - is because C16 is illegal to use on any public road. But who gives a **** about us and our children getting lead poisoning & going crazy at 40 yrs old.

A car that makes 650+ whp usually isn't going to be on the street much - any streetable tire on that FWD car will not take half the power, not to mention the lag & lightning-fast rampup in power will make it boring as ****. So its pretty obvious why 'those people' choose E85.

I'm just happy that a station 5 mins from me now carries E85. I would have to drive 30+ mins to even get 100 octane, let alone C16.

Schister66

Hey Fnan, are you going to Consumate?? Do they tune UTEC??


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well one reason people with street/strip cars run E85 - is because C16 is illegal to use on any public road. But who gives a **** about us and our children getting lead poisoning & going crazy at 40 yrs old.

A car that makes 650+ whp usually isn't going to be on the street much - any streetable tire on that FWD car will not take half the power, not to mention the lag & lightning-fast rampup in power will make it boring as ****. So its pretty obvious why 'those people' choose E85.

I'm just happy that a station 5 mins from me now carries E85. I would have to drive 30+ mins to even get 100 octane, let alone C16. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You make some good points...i didnt realize that C16 was illegal for street use though. Living up here in the middle of nowhere will do that to you. I'm hoping to use E85 on my retune in the spring because for the price per gallon and its octane rating, its hard to beat.

96 GSR-T

Any leaded fuel is illegal for use on public roadways.

boostincoupe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Schister66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey Fnan, are you going to Consumate?? Do they tune UTEC??
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Consummate Tuning 4 lYfE son, Jordan's my boy!

Schister66

Regardless of whether or not i keep or sell the GSR, i'll more than likely be getting an E85 tune in the spring. With how cheap and available it is, there is no reason not to

PHDZINE

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Schister66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Regardless of whether or not i keep or sell the GSR, i'll more than likely be getting an E85 tune in the spring. With how cheap and available it is, there is no reason not to</TD></TR></TABLE>
For us Cali people...I have no idea where to even get E85 but I can drive 5 miles and get C16.

batboyvaj

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostincoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Consummate Tuning 4 lYfE son, Jordan's my boy! </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wish I could say the same about Jordan. I may be the only person in the whole world that has had a bad experience with him, but oh well. But if you have had good luck with him, then stick with him. I guess its all personal pref.


Good luck on your build Fnan, but you should go neptune rtp or ectune. You still planning on using crome?

dc2____R

what do u mean?Lots of street cars run it, so long as its readily available from the pump. I like it due to it being cheaper, not adding money to the middle east, and it makes more power...

watch what you say rota92 cause i didn't find thats **** funny and its disgusting
where's the moderators when come's to stupid stuff like this



<U>EDITED</U>

Schister66

^I dont know what that was about, but this time serves as a warning...try it again and the outcome wont be as fun