1158

I have chosen...turbo (car in sig). I have researched all kits and I have considered custom. After reading A LOT of HT posts, I'll go drag 3. I know with custom I get exactly what I want and I know the pros/cons of other kits. I think the Drag is best for me at this point. The kit allows me to gain experience and then replace what I want when I want/need to. What I need help on is a stand alone. I was thinking Hondata but now I'm thinking AEM EMS. I have the dreaded OBD II and price wise AEM EMS runs close to Hondata 2b (with all the other crap I need), plus I don't need someone else around to tune it. (I'm not saying I don't need dyno time, I'm saying if I want to tweak things once I learn more, I can)

I'm worried I will have problems getting the car started/driven to where I am going to get it tuned with AEM. I may have to do some tinkering to get the car to this point and I would rather not blow it up right away. With Hondata I would have basemaps to get me there. I know the AEM unit has downloadable base maps, but how good are they. YES, I have used the search feature and have gotten mixed results. Some people are have little to no problem while others are blowing their motors. I know to blow your motor you have to do something extreme, but it has happened. I will be running stock internals with 8 to 10 PSI. I understand I will want more boost, that the motor will not handle much more, and it will need to be rebuilt. It will happen, but for now, I just want boost. So, I'm wondering what others with AEM or hondata think. I have already decided that I don't want to mess with an FMU and an inline. I'll get the FPR, the injectors, the intank pump, and the stand alone. I also would like to know how difficult it was for those with the AEM system to get the car running to the point that you could drive it to get it tuned. I'm NOT asking for a AEM vs Hondata (which is a current post). What I want to know is how difficult AEM EMS is to get up and running and if any of the Hondata people are thinking of switching. Sorry to make you read so much, but I want to learn all I can while picking the best system for me.

1fstevo

Be prepared to spend a long long time tuning the car. Month after months to get it right. Zipping from 0-100 mph tuning is no problem but to get the drivability like stock takes more than patience, time, and knowledge. The EMS forum has information but I have not seen any problems been answered completely, it's pretty much test and trial. If you think you have no well logic in tuning, advice to take it to a experienced tuner. There is no one there to pay for your motor if it blew due to the wrong way( only a few blew their motor). My car drives very well now after one and a half month of tuning on the road, not dyno ( dyno is only good for track tuning). Made my own ignition map and fuel map which works very well but I can't compare to anything if it's perfect. The base map aem supplied were very conservative which is good at protecting the engine but very sluggish while driven on. It's on your own risk to build your own maps and setting.
TIP: Honda technical section in ems forum are junk, goto toyota supra section in the forum, they ask more intelligent questions.


[Modified by [Evo]Hybrid, 6:36 AM 8/8/2002]


[Modified by [Evo]Hybrid, 7:00 AM 8/8/2002]

dbman96

Evo's got some good points. I put an AEM EMS in my car about a month ago, my first standalone. It took me two nights to get my car idling and driveable. I was held up by not having a laptop, so I had to lug my desktop system out to the garage (and actually drove around with it in my car so I could tune at work if I needed to). What I ended up doing was driving on the base map with very minor changes for a few weeks, then when I got a laptop, I spent another hour or two in the car tuning, and I HONESTLY have what I feel is "near-stock" driveability which is pretty decent considering I am running a CRV / GSR hybrid engine on Eclipse 450cc injectors. The car runs great, gets decent mileage, etc. etc. I DO have a wideband A/F monitor sitting in my passenger seat that I can use for tuning reference, and I don't think I would even CONSIDER trying to tune a standalone without one. Aside from that, I spent a lot of time reading up on the AEM forum regarding idle and startup settings, accel/decel functions, and it all came together really smoothly.

1158

First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply, hopefully I can get more feedback.

Now as for taking time to get it tuned properly, fine with me. I would rather take longer and have it done right the first time. I enjoy tinkering with my car, so even though there will be times my patience is tried, I'll enjoy it. Both of you have been tuning on them for a little while now, has it become easier? I would think that after becoming familiar with the ems it is easier. I will check the ems forum to see what else I can learn. I have been working on/with cars for years so I feel that I would be capable of working/tuning a car with turbo. I have picked up a lot in the past few weeks just reading posts here, so I'm learning. It seems if you take your time, are careful, and THINK before you start messing with ****, you can get it right without destroying a motor.

You said the basemaps are conservative, but good enough to get the car from A to B. So getting the car started/running shouldn't be much of a hassel. Dyno tuning is only likely to help at or near WOT, but that seems like the time with the best chance of blowing up. Common sense, research, and trial and error are required to get the remainder of the map set. The ems may be just what I want/need.

Thanks guys

falcongsr

i am still working on assembling my UEGO wideband kit. its a pretty lengthy project, but i sure hope its worth it in the end.

i agree 100% you NEED a wideband in your car if you're gonna tune your setup. I am still having issues with accel/decel, but i havent read up on it much...I did tune my setup with the stock narrowband o2...but its really useless and the stock o2 tells you nothing except you're richer than 14.7.... if you're at 14.0 thats bad even tho it says full rich...

i am running the stock ecu until i have wideband tuning capabilities.

dbman96

With the right dyno you can tune the whole map if you've got the time. I've got a Mustang Dyno at work and I can set it to hold the engine at a constant speed, then work through the different load bars and watch the AF and torque output as I change the timing or fuel settings. If I was paying for the dyno by the hour it would kill me of course. I still do most part-throttle tuning on the road, but my wideband display is a little slow responding so it's either difficult or distracting a lot of the time.

Tuning is FUN though if you don't expect adding a standalone to be like a "bolt-on" mod. I keep trying to explain this to my wife... every time I finish a tuning "session" she asks "Well did you fix it?" It's hard to explain that it's not a question of "fixed" or "broken" but she's tolerating it pretty well. Only problem is it's HER laptop that I have to steal

bmm89

If you can find someome with a map that works with your engine/ecu combo then there will be no problem. Mine fired up on the very first try with idle a bit high but did not drive right away with the base map provided by aem. Just about all the base maps are on stock civics/tegs with basic bolt ons. After being on the aem forum a while, you get to see that the people using it are all very technically inclined esp. with computers, but not necessarily tuning. This is my first standalone on my vehicle as well, though i've played with friend's hondata units before.

dbman, i find the same problem when road tuning, however, what i do is offset the a/f log with the rpm log so i am correcting with the map being "retarded" 500 rpm.


As soon as AEM gets a larger collection of base maps, or they setup a ftp to share maps, then it will be easy to tune with simple downloads.

1158

Maybe this is a stupid/crazy idea, but what if I were to buy the ems before getting the turbo kit and then install it on my basically stock teg? This way I could get used to the ems and the software. Since the motor is stock, getting it running would (well theoretically) be easier than with a turbo motor. Any reason this wouldn't work or would be stupid? Again, I'm not look to go real fast real quick, I just wanna be fast/safe in the end. I'm sure there are some gains to be found over the stock ecu, especially having the OBD II. What do you guys think? Or should I just some more?

1fstevo

All that time wasted on tuning the stock integra. While afterward turbocharging it, you have to retune mostly all the maps, all the caliberation of voltages, all the settings like 3bar map sensor, it's just not a well worth idea. I don't see any real advantage.

My car will never pass emission since it has zero anything to produce clean air so I never really check if EMS is carb certified which from my understanding, there is no check code to check emission status so OBD1 or 2 is really no difference I think. That's just my thought, anyone passed emission with ems yet?


[Modified by [Evo]Hybrid, 8:11 PM 8/9/2002]

falcongsr

i think you should get the standalone first and learn how to program it. thats EXACTLY what i am doing. i do expect to find some additional power with the ems. i already removed some of the agressive timing dip at vtec changeover and it feels much better... get a wideband o2 so you can tune on the street (hopefully some empty straight roads)

yes, you'll have to retune with turbo but 1) you'll know how and 2) you'll be less likely to blow your **** up and 3) its fun if you like playing with comptuers and electronics and stuff.

boomslang

That's what I have been doing with my hatch. Might as well learn how to use it on a worthless stock engine instead of a $8K built motor.

Brian_92GSR

I would recommend getting the EMS before the turbo and tuning the car stock, but try and get the 3 bar map sensor and the injectors you'll be using with the turbo first. Then you can get the NA part of the maps tuned fairly well, and when you add the turbo you'll just need to tune the boost regions of the maps, plus make some fine changes to the rest of it. Even if you don't put in the new injectos and map sensor beforehand, the experience tuning it will certainly pay off later.

I do have a hondata 4b and AEM EMS, so I do have a basis for my advice.

1158

I think the advantage would be getting familiar with the ems with an engine that doesn't have nearly the variables that an FI engine would have. I know everything will have to be retuned, but so what? Part of the reason I wanna go turbo is because it gives me the chance to work on/tune the car. Plus if I were to make a mistake the stock engine is likely to be more forgiving than a high strung engine.

1fstevo

All i am saying is if you have time sure why not, hell, you can tune and retune how ever times you want if you just want to learn. From past couple month, tuning the ecu take quite a long time. For me, I sat at my shop work and rework both my maps more than four times now and I am finally satisfied with it for now. Each map ( fuel and ignition) takes up to two hours to remake and I am not talking about changing values from a caliberation file from ems forum, I start blank since all the map I download are not exact I want to work from. Now, for someone who's career is not performance related and work full time somewhere else, it's just hard to take time out to remap, load, drive, remap and cycle goes on and on. Once you sit there and work on it, you can't just stop since you lose mapping momentum. Like I said, if you have all the time in the world it would be cool to test and learn with no distraction. Happy tuning.

1158

I understand what you are saying, and I know what you mean about the time thing. I work 12 hour days and my career is far from performance related. I am lucky that I usually get 3 or 4 days off at a time, so that helps a lot. Since I don't have any of the turbo stuff yet, I figured it would be wiser to buy the ems first. If I get the turbo kit first, I won't have the money for the ems and I'll end up using the FMU setup for awhile. I know the fmu is a decent setup, but I would rather have the ems. I would feel much safer with it. Buying the ems first makes me put off buying the turbo kit for a few more months, but a little extra prep time can't hurt.

As for wideband o2, what do you guys use? I checked out the GB on the FJO wideband and was looking at the page. I'm still learning, but it appears I need the sensor, the controller, and the display, is that right? When I mount it on the car before I go turbo, should I mount it where the exhaust runners merge? I assume that is where it needs to be, but I could be wrong. Thanks for you help, I really appreciate it.

1fstevo

I used the fjo which first bought the controller and had a spare wideband O2 from a vx motor. Then I purchased the monitor because I realized constant turning my head to watch the parameter on the laptop while blazing down the highway is not so healthy plus ems has an a/f caliberation problem basically couldn't read the wideband voltage correct without extensive testing of your own. I used the monitor to adjust the correction table.