<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nextelbuddy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

can anyone confirm this?? i really cringe at the thought of having to take out the cams and valve train just to retorque head studs that are supposed to be the **** and then havto reset the timing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

U don't have to remove the valvetrain, only the cams have to go since the studs are right under them.

 

ok.... well then I guess im going with AEBS then... plus i like things with nipples.

 

yea i already ordered the AEBS studs from camp1320.com. 115 shipped.

if the instructions for the AEBS say not to retorque them after 1000 miles then im all for that. less work = happy me

 

I just posted on that thread.... he doesn't have b16 studs yet

 

i have a set of arp on my 500+whp motor , no problems. now i have built a next motor with the aebs studs. first thing i noticed was that the aebs are a little beefier than the arp's and the second thing was that installing the studs into the block with hand was much easier all the way into the block. now with the arp's you could only hand tighten them so much then you would have to use the double nut method.

 

With all of the fuss surrounding the 'magic" AEBS studs and the AEBS-ARP debate, I thought I would shed a little light on the subject from my perspective. (NOTE: DO NOT TORQUE DOWN ARP HEAD STUDS, Hand tight is what is recommended !)

Why do we want to use a stud that bottoms out (AEBS)? The main reason is to help to equalize the spread of the load amongst all of the threads. When the nipple at the end of the stud hits the bottom of the hole, it pushes up on the stud relieving the load on the top one or two threads and fairly well distributing it. A typical ARP stud actually has a little more force being applied to the top one or two threads since it is bottoming on the shank of the stud instead of the bottom of the hole.

This may seem like a big deal, but in actuality it is not. From engineering formulas and models, it is accepted (in the hardware world) that as a minimum contact area we want to have 2.5X the thread diameter of the studs locking them together. At this level, the risk of thread pullout in an aluminum block is minimized. This means that for a set of ARP studs the minimum contact would need to be, 2.5 X 12mm (honda Size) = 30mm or 1.18". The ARP stud set for a Honda B-Series motor checks in at 1.40" which is much better than what is acceptable. ARP had the option of putting a bottoming end on the stud but found it was not necessary in these applications and increased the price dramatically. They chose to use this only if the application requires it. There are applications where ARP uses the same "technology" so it is not anything exclusive. What we see here is that people are trying to make a big deal of something that is not really that important.

What's important? When looking at hardware, there are some items that are really more critical than the thread load. The first is the heat treatment. Most less-expensive manufacturers use a fairly "quick and dirty" job of heat treating with large variations across the stud. Another item to look at is thread roll versus cut. Only the good studs will have the threads rolled in, the less expensive ones are cut. Another area is surface finish where the less expensive studs have microscopic surface nicks and fractures, which ultimately lead to stress risers and component failure. These items will dictate the success of a stud more than the load distribution.

As to stud size, that has nothing to do with how well it works. That has to do with the tensile strength of the material. A stud with cheap materials will have to be larger to apply the correct clamp load compared to a smaller one of better quality construction (such as 8740 Chromoly). One has to remember that the studs are a simple spring and will stretch and contract under load. The first impulse is to use a super strong stud with no "give". This is incorrect. A stud must expand and contract to allow for the cool-to-heat-to-cool cycle. Without the ability of the stud to expand and contract, the cylinder head will never seal correctly. In terms of size, ARPs most expensive stud style is the U-Cut or Under-Cut stud. These studs actually neck down the middle (are smaller diameter) to allow for better expansion-contraction properties while still keeping the appropriate clamp load. As we can see there is a lot more to quality studs than just thread load...I've only touched the tip of the iceburg....sorry for the book...

PS. In case you are wondering, the best combo would be the ARP U-Cut studs with the nipple attached (if they made them)

Tom

 

Do LS owners even have a choice? Last I checked, no one was selling AEBS studs for the LS.

 

so basicall your trying to say they are both about the same and if ARP had the dimples then they would be way better than the AEBS with dimples?

 

In a nutshell yes. A little too much is being made of only one aspect of hardware. There are many other aspects that are as important if not more important.

 

Well, with that resolved, let me ask this:
Should the factory torque settings be used, or should you use more torque with either the ARP or AEBS studs. I have heard several opinions but never have recieved a definitive answer.

 

up...

 

let me ask this then.....

why do we have to retorque head studs after 1000 miles??

when you buy a new car they dont tell you to take it back to the dealer after 1000 milres to get retorqued... why do we have to do it with AEBS or ARP head studs when they are supposed to be far superior to factory head studs?

i have AEBS head studs and i dont want to know if i have to retorque them after 1000 miles in case u havent noticed... i dont want to lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ibiza &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, with that resolved, let me ask this:
Should the factory torque settings be used, or should you use more torque with either the ARP or AEBS studs. I have heard several opinions but never have recieved a definitive answer.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

according to the arp tech, i should torque my head studs down to 60lbs with moly lube, and 70 with 30w oil. for reference stock torque on a z6 head is ~53lbs.

 

The instructions that came with my AEBS studs says there is no need to re-torque. That is the purpose of the "dimples". Ive built many engines with the ARP's. Those ****'s lose their torque after one night of sitting on the engine stand.

 

the retorquing deal has more to do with the headgasket than the stud.

read a helms manual, it says retorque the head after the engine is driven for a few hundred miles. note that cometic says that you do not have to retorque when using their headgasket. i have used cometic hg's with stock bolts and arp studs, they never come loose. however... do the same thing with a stock hg and they will be loose.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the retorquing deal has more to do with the headgasket than the stud.

read a helms manual, it says retorque the head after the engine is driven for a few hundred miles. .</TD></TR></TABLE>

ive always heard 10 heat cycles,
normally when we retorque them, (arp's) they (arp's) are fine

 

When you guys say "retorque", do you mean basically pulling the studs out all the way, and re-torquing them? Or just set the torque wrench to whatever you used originally, and have a turn at them w/o loosening first?

 

Tom, thanks for the clarification. i would probably spring for the ARP. in my totally subjective opinion they have a better reputation and technology behind them. i was about to ask about why the nipple was advantageous before Tom rang in. his other factors make sense too, ie tensile strength.
so i too would rather see a comparison in manufacturing, tensile strength, and design before going with the newer, cheaper, and supposedly better brand.

when needing to retorque, how much was needed? possibly by lowering the setting on your torque wrench and see when it begins to click.

what is roll bead vs. cut?

as far as the nipple, wouldnt variations such as milling and gasket choice affect its purpose?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b00stedbyFastrax &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> now with the arp's you could only hand tighten them so much then you would have to use the double nut method.</TD></TR></TABLE>

the set i had in my 2literls/vtec were like thatbut the last one i put together with arp's had allen heads in the top so i could get them all the way down without jam nutting. and i have never had any probs out of arp's

 

also when installing i have always started at 20lbs and gone up 10lb increments to 70lbs with moly lube and honda headgaskets and no loosening

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the retorquing deal has more to do with the headgasket than the stud.

read a helms manual, it says retorque the head after the engine is driven for a few hundred miles. note that cometic says that you do not have to retorque when using their headgasket. i have used cometic hg's with stock bolts and arp studs, they never come loose. however... do the same thing with a stock hg and they will be loose.</TD></TR></TABLE>

dammit.. i'm confused now... so which brand should i get? i will be using a cometic headgasket...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rondigs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't under stand this mentality, V8 guys pay the same price we pay (for the majority of their parts), they get twice as much product per order, and we complain & question reasonable prices on quality items.
I just think its retarded how some people are willing to pay $900 for a mugen valve cover, thousands of dollars for type X cams, Etc. The market for honda peformance parts is out of control. And whats worse, people questioning quality parts at a reasonable price.

Not to attack the thread creator, just venting. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices this. That's why I refuse to pay top dollar for brands like crower, etc etc, when companies like eagle are so much more reasonable. It's just not fair.
Prices have been going down, and hopefully in time they will be what they should- We pay the same price, if nto more, for 4 pistons than chevy guys do for eight. Same goes for rods... valves... springs... retainers... It's fucked up ****. Don't feed the money hungry over priced brands and let competition play it's role. Always go with the best option, for the money. ....and weather or not anyone else does this, I will always.

 

what ft/lb do you torque the ARP's to?I lost the sheet that came with mine.

Also, do you torque to like 40ft/lbs first, then go around and re torque them all to 7x ft/lbs?

 

why do you people fix what isnt broken. just ask some pro drivers what they use.

Tom....who is using stock head studs......

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamCracka &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you guys say "retorque", do you mean basically pulling the studs out all the way, and re-torquing them? Or just set the torque wrench to whatever you used originally, and have a turn at them w/o loosening first?</TD></TR></TABLE>
i just go in and set the torque wrench to what the final setting is and check all of them.

its more of a make sure they are still torqued down right. i dont loosen them and retighten them, just make sure they are still where they need to be/where i left them

hope that helps