BlueShadow

Hey guys,

I want to get a general idea on how much power my setup is good for. The block and head is all built up, and I'm upgrading my turbo setup piece by piece. But I wanted to know if my goal of 500WHP can be reached with my setup.

Also when somebody is dyno tuning a turbo setup how can the tell if the car can handle more power/boost? is it by looking at the timing numbers? do you just stop raising the amount of boost once your total timing reaches a certain limit? or is it a set timing limit and EGT readings that tell you when you have reached your timing limit?

here is the setup that I was hoping would make it to 500WHP pump gas:

Laskey Racing/Benson sleeved B18C 83mm 1.9L (CP pistons, Manley rods, ARP headstuds, LS crank)
B18C1 head SuperTech valvesprings, 0.5mm oversized valves, titanium retainers, Portflow headwork
Precision SC6152S w/ 0.63 ar hotside
SpoolinPerformance Ramhorn manifold
Precision AS1025 600HP IC
2.5" IC piping
TIAL BOV
Turbosmart 38mm WG running closed loop
3" DP, 3" magnaflow cat, 3" custom exhaust piping with Apexi N1 turbo muffler
Tuned with either CromePRO, Neptune, or Autronic PnP
RC 750cc saturated injectors, but will probably upgrade to 1000cc's
Walbro 255LPH HP
stock feed/return lines & fuel filter
Edelbrock fuel rail, SS line from fuel filter to rail
SS line from rail to Aeromotive FPR 13109
still undecided on cams, maye some S2S2 or Crane stg 2 cams

TIA

Boostage

Question is, why would you want to take a chance?

b18a1ef9

i personally think its in the tuning so dyno it and you should make enough horspower.

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hartb16a1whitecrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i personally think its in the tuning so dyno it and you should make enough horspower. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sorry but I'm looking for a more specific and detailed answer instead of "it's all in the tuning". Obviously it's going to be in the tuning...but I want to know how the professional tuners out there know when to stop. How do these tuners know when they have come to the limits of pump gas? I'm guessing it's when EGT's get too high from too much timing retard, and advancing timing only leads to knock. But I also want to know if there is anything that can be done to increase the knock threshold. I believe lowering compression ratio is one of them, but I would like to know if there are other ways. Does that mean if I had a 8.0 or 8.5:1 CR instead of a 9.4:1 CR I would be able to run more boost and therefore more power? Is that much of a CR change going to make tha much of a difference?

whoneedzvtec

i think its within range, if ur to far from ur goal once u have done everything u can do, go with an aquamist system and give er' some more timing and more boost on pump gas .

a little off topic but i noticed that laskey racing sleeved and built ur block, how did that turn out? my buddy just sent out his k20 to them to get benson sleeved and built, just wondering on how everything turned out for u?

BlueShadow

I was thinking about alcohol injection, but I forgot all about water injection. I'll give water injection a look as well as alcohol injection. I haven't really gotten a chance to run the turbo setup on the block yet. I've been runnin it for about 4 months but I keep running into setbacks on my car. It'll probably be another couple of months before I can get the turbo setup on the car.

tony1

It's not gonna happen safely on 91 octane...

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not gonna happen safely on 91 octane...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've been talking to SEFIxCivic on here and I might end up getting tuned by him. He said that he should be able to give me athte most 380-400WHP, but that's on a Mustang dyno so corrected I guess it's around 450ish?

Is it also my turbo that is limiting me? if I was to upgrade that to something bigger do you guys think I would be able to reach my goal then? Before when I got my SC61 I was also looking at the T3/T67 HO, but I figured it would be overkill for me. But now I am back to looking at the T67 HO (with the Garrett BB upgrade) and I've also been following the GT42R setups on here to see if that's something I wanna do later on. I'll probably end up running the SC61 and be happy with 350-400 WHP. But I still want to see how far I can safely push my setup on pump gas for when I go to upgrade my turbo in the future.

tony1

The octane of the fuel is what's limiting you.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Dump the compression real low, like 8:1. Look into extensive head work. Quench pads that match your pistons can have a significant role with the knock threshold.

Tony you dont think 91octane can make big power (~500hp) under any circumstance safely?

mrx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dump the compression real low, like 8:1. Look into extensive head work. Quench pads that match your pistons can have a significant role with the knock threshold.

Tony you dont think 91octane can make big power (~500hp) under any circumstance safely?</TD></TR></TABLE>

want to know that from a professional tuner as well...
i tuned a few cars allready and even with 8:1 on 91 octane i think i wouldn't sleep very good... maybe with a water injection but even with this i guess its on the limit.

but maybe i'am to frightend... lets here what other tuners say. Mase maybe?!

Best regards
Malte.

adseguy

No experience here but since we already make pump gas cars at 9.5:1 to 430ish HP I would be pretty confident that a 8.0:1 CR would hold 500 on pump. It is close though and I whould def. invest in water or alcohol injection for high boost runs.

The other questions as to when to stop the power. For you obviously it's going to be the pump gas scenario. I stop when I judge it's safe on pump OR, when on c16, 2 more lbs of boost doesn't make as much power as it should. Say I'm making about 10whp per lb of boost normally. Well once I start ony making around 5-7whp is when I judge to stop. You will always make more power with more boost, but it's just shoving food in someones' mouth .

seen4ever

I don't understand why you want to risk all the work for something that with race gas doesn't have to be c16, just some good old turbo blue can easily get you to. Why push the limits of gas, what happens if you go to a gas station and some dumbass driver mixed in some 89 octane?

why not just go for 400whp on pump gas, and be happy. Do you realize what 500whp on the street is really like? Its kind of like..spin, shift, spin, shift, spin, shift, spin...traction..shift.. go...letoff as cars get too close.

300-350whp IMO is a perfect number for a street car, if you really hone down on your suspension setup, maybe shoot for 400ish, but really on the street with normal tires (AKA not M&H or MT radials) its just alot of spinning and going no where. if you just want dynoqueen bragging rights, go to a mustang dyno and have them adjust thier calibrations until it says 500, or drive to utah and get on a dynojet.

BlueShadow

I'm not gonna be running 500 WHP all the time on the street. I have an AVCR and the boost would be kept lower for DDing. So going with a bigger, more efficient turbo or higher lift cams isn't really going to affect anything? Well that sucks. I wanna avoid running race gas, but it's looking like there's no way around it. Maybe I'll have SEFIxCivic give me a 91 octane safe street tune, then i'll just do another tune on race gas.

White Smoke

Ask you tuner! If he thinks he can do it, then do it. If not, then dont!
Id say no but thats me... You need a new IM at least.

My motor made 505 on 93 **** watter.
.63 SC-61
84.5mm 9:1 Endyn Pistons
GSR Stroke
Portflow Head w/.5mm OS valves
Matched Quench Pads to 84.5mm
And I think the JG mani and 65mm TB helped.

Dragline

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White Smoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Id say no but thats me...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2
and why would you want to, just run race gas and you won't have to worry about it being a problem. I'd rather buy race gas then A motor

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White Smoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ask you tuner! If he thinks he can do it, then do it. If not, then dont!
Id say no but thats me... You need a new IM at least.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

My tuner says that with my current setup it probably cant be done. He said maybe with a T67 I might be able to get more HP. And that's what got me thinking about what kinds of changes in my setup will help me get more HP out of it. I think I forgot to mention I had an S2 IM already. But i'll be changing that out for a Victor-X when I get a chance.

whoneedzvtec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dragline &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

x2
and why would you want to, just run race gas and you won't have to worry about it being a problem. I'd rather buy race gas then A motor
</TD></TR></TABLE>

im sure he's not gonna be pushing the hell out of his motor to get 500 on pump gas. this is just his goal . if u do it right i think its possible. i have a fully built ls with 8.5:1 and crazy head work and i made 380 on a drag mani, drag turbo, and drag 2 inch charge pipes on pump gas. i turned the boost up to 21 psi on pump gas on the dyno. i think that u need just to make sure all ur turbo set-up is really efficient and its totally possible. and if u dont make it there try a aquamist system and that should pretty much u pretty damn close if u still cant seem to get 500 good luck.

714phil

I made 485whp with a 1.7L b16 on 91 octane.
(18psi, 16 degrees timing and 11.5:1 AF from full boost to redline)

I never really pushed it with the tuning on pump gas cause 485whp is retarded on the street unless you have 225/50 bfg drag radials (which could never be daily driven because the treadwear is like 20).

For more info on my setup.. email me or Look in the issues of DSport.

LST2

I have the same goal... trying to hit 500whp on pump 93. My set up is a little different:

T67 with stage 5 wheel and .63 housing
85MM 9.0:1 LS/VTEC
BBK IM
Type R cams
Cam gears

My 750cc injectors are holding me back at this point. I have a cooling mist setup which I am going to put in next week then take it to the dyno. The extra methanol should help supplement the smaller injectors. Should be doable. I am running 225 BFGs which do help tremendously with traction.

We will see...

Importordomestic

Anyone ever used Prop plane fuel? - Oh say drive to your airport and fill up with 130+ octane? - just a question

slow poke

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Importordomestic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone ever used Prop plane fuel? - Oh say drive to your airport and fill up with 130+ octane? - just a question </TD></TR></TABLE>

$$$

old no.7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not gonna happen safely on 91 octane...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would invest in a water/methanol injection system. I am running well over 400whp on 92 octane with no problems. My friend is pushing over 1400whp and running in the 7's on pump gas, [twin turbo big block ] Check out this link http://fjoracing.com/index.php

SEFIxCivic

blueshadow,

you misunderstood me over the pm. when i said you could make 380 to 400 whp i was quoting dynojet numbers not mustang.

the numbers corrected on the mustang are 300-330 whp.

tony is correct you are octane limited.

the people that are saying its possible to do 500 whp on pump, you realize that there are maybe only a handful of people that have done this, and their turbo size is beyond the PT67 T4.

on the street it is really pointless to push the car on pump gas. the most i've ever done on my own car is 420 or so whp with a straight T4 PT67.

sorry for the miscommunication.

Andy

PeakBoost

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SEFIxCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you misunderstood me over the pm. when i said you could make 380 to 400 whp i was quoting dynojet numbers not mustang.

the numbers corrected on the mustang are 300-330 whp.

tony is correct you are octane limited.

the people that are saying its possible to do 500 whp on pump, you realize that there are maybe only a handful of people that have done this, and their turbo size is beyond the PT67 T4.

on the street it is really pointless to push the car on pump gas. the most i've ever done on my own car is 420 or so whp with a straight T4 PT67.

sorry for the miscommunication.

Andy </TD></TR></TABLE>