Thee_Antic

Alright first off, I'm new here. Thanks for having me

I picked up a project del sol with a fully built B16. The mod list is as follows:

Mahle 11.5:1 High Compresion 81mm Oversize Pistons
Brian Crower Stage 2 All-Motor Cams
Brian Crower Titanium Springs and Retainers
Brian Crower Flat Faced Titanium Oversize Valves
ARP Head Studs
Buddy Club Racing High Compresion Head Gasket
Triangular Valve Job, Full Port and Polish, Milled Head
JDM B16a Block Bored .50 Over, Decked, & Hot-Tanked
JDM B16a Crankshaft, Micro Polished & Balanced
RC SL 310cc Fuel Injectors
AEM Adjustable Cam Gears
AEM Fuel Presure regulator
Walbro 255LPH Fuel Pump
Pasword JDM Whale ***** CAI
Hasport Solid Billet Engine Mounts
Pacesetter Header-Back Exhaust System
Pacesetter Header
PowerPlus Type R Intake Manifold
Moroso Oil Pan - Turbo Ready
OBX R Dual Core Radiator
BLOX TPS
Wideband o2 Sensor
Glow Shift Wideband o2 Sensor
Glow Shift AFR Gauge
Energy Suspension Bushing Kit
RSX Shift ****
Type R Short Throw Shifter
Phearable ECU: Chipped, Socket-ed, & Tuned; 9000 RPM Redline, 4000 RPM Two-Step, 6000 RPM VTEC
Del Sol VTEC 9k RPM Gauge Cluster w/56k Miles
Optima Yellow Top Battery
NGK Iridium Plugs & Wires
HONDA OEM Cap & Rotor
HONDA OEM Fuel Filter
HONDA OEM VTEC Solenoid
OEM Timing Belt, Tensioner, & Water Pump
Black Chrome Powder Coated B16a Valve Cover
All Black Chrome Powder Coated Brackets, i.e. Battery Tray, Slave Cyl, ect.
Black Chrome Bolt & Washer Kit
Del Sol Seats w/ NO TEARS
Original Del Sol Floor Mats
Flat Olive Green Paint Job, Red Driver Fender (old one had a scratch, keeping the car bondo free!!)
(2) Targa Tops: One is Stock, the other is an Aftermarket GLASS top!!
(2) Front Bumpers: 97 Style in White, 93 Style w/AUX Lights in Flat Olive Green
JDM Style Amber Corner lenses
Carbon Fiber Hood (Clearcoat Fading)
Exedy Stage 2 6 Puck Clutch
Exedy Stage 2 Presure Plate & Throwout Bearing
Exedy Stage 2 Lightweight 9lb Flywheel
Brembo Performance Rotors
Hawk Performance Brake Pads
New OEM Front Rotors
New OEM Brake Kits Everywhere
New Gaskets Everywhere Gaskets Can Be.
I Don't Remember the Brand of Rim, but they are 15" w/ Nice Tires



Supposedly he shaved the head enough + added a thinner head gasket to be making a 12.5:1 compression ratio.

Now obviously I don't think I can turbo a motor with that high of a compression ratio, but was looking to modify it a bit.

If I were to up the injectors and put a thicker than stock head gasket lowering compression, do you think it would be possible for me to run 8ish psi of boost? (Any guess's as to what the compression will be lowered to?)

The car should be running at ~200hp as is, and my goal is anywhere from 250-300. I think that this is rather reasonable, especially seeing as all of the supporting mods are there (clutch, fuel pump, built internals etc).

Any input here?

Obviously I have a LOT of research to do before I even think about purchasing parts for this build..but it is either low boost turbo or a direct port 100 shot..

I figured I would have more fun the the boost

vipersal

Yes you can.

Drop the compression a little bit with a cometic headgasket and you can use a mehtanol kit also to help you with the high exhaust temp.

Thee_Antic

Thanks very much, I'll research both of those.

Schister66

It will come down to your fuel choice more so than anything else. If you have access to E85, you could turbo the setup as is and reach your goal. If you're running 92-93 oct, you may consider lowering the compression with a thicker HG. Your turbo choice will also be important...you dont necessarily have to run a bigger than average turbo at low boost to make your goal safely. If you run a smaller turbo at slightly higher boost and at an efficient flow range, you could retain some of your NA responsiveness while still meeting/exceeding your power goal. You aren't running stock pistons so you needn't worry nearly as much...I dont think Mahle pistons crack ringlands often. Your sleeves are the next in line and they will handle 400+

PS: Relying on a methanol kit is not a great idea unless you're planning to autocross this car in which case, you would use it as a supplementary system to aid the existing cooling system. I dont think you'll need anything like this if you run a correctly sized turbo and have a proper IC system.

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

If you dont want to lower the compression with a HG, run ethanol and roll the over lap out of your cams. 300 will come easy especially at that compression ratio.

Schister66

^^Cams...good point

You may want to research the cams you currently have and see how they fare on boost. If they turn out to be less-than-ideal, get yourself a set of Blox B's or CTR/ITR cams....there are a few Skunk 2 turbo series available as well. It may be worth selling/trading your cams for a different set geared more toward forced induction

Thee_Antic

I've been reading into the whole e85 thing..are you guys actually talking about ethanol? Corn fuel lol..

I live in metro detroit, finding e85 means maybe driving out of your way, but other than that no biggy.

I am trying to run a relatively safe dd though, I should have mentioned that. So I wouldn't mind lowering the compression a little bit, especially seeing as even if I were to go as low as 10.5:1 (Stock I think?) it shouldn't make my goals unreachable.

And on that note, you guys are reeaally tempting me to aim for 350..you make it sound so easy

Schister66, Pm'ed.

Edit: I will look into the cams tonight, as far as I know they were meant to be an all motor cam.. Would it be worth my while to "roll the overlap" (I assume this means grind/reshape the cams) or just replace them all together?

I would like my turbo budget to be right around $1000-1500. I think this is very doable, mainly because most of the components I can pick up on a local forum of mine (XceedSpeed.com) for cheap. About to pick up a greddy (Stage 2?) turbo timer and boost controller for $200

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

Hell i would just throw some gsr cams in it. Those would be more than suffecient.

Yep. Corn fuel. lol. At 10.5:1 you could easily get by on pump gas. Make sure you have a good tuner that is competent and knows what hes doing. You can run the turbo on your current setup using pump gas (93 oct) but you would be on a very conservative tune to avoid detonation.

Thee_Antic

Lol thought so

As far as the compression goes, I am going to be taking the head off anyways to inspect the cylinder walls and just overall check the previous owners work. He was kind of a sketchy guy but sure did know his hondas

Worse comes to worse if the walls are because ****-**** didn't know how to break in an engine (9.3k shifts when your showing me the car are good and all..not so much when you say the engine has 1xx miles....) I might hone it up, replace rings and rod bearings while I'm at it.

Anyways..its either going down to 10.5:1 or 11.?:1..not sure which one is best yet lol.

What I'm seeing is for semi-reliability on anything (roughly) over 10.5-11:1 I should be running e85..I guess I'll see how I feel when I'm buying headgaskets lol.

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

Lol how many headgaskets do you need?? jk.
Do you plan on only using the headgasket to lower the compression? or are you going to use different pistons? Taking the wholething apart after only having 1xx miles on it seems a little unnecessary. The rings have seated for sure. How does the car feel? Is it burning anything? People build their cars, get them up to temp, let it cool off, and then hop on the dyno and make crazy power. If you plan on running pump gas i would lower the compression to the 10 range. lower than that wont hurt either.

Thee_Antic

..Honestly never knew that..I was always told to break it in..low rpms..blah blah blah bullshit lol.

As far as I know its not burning anything, can't go by oil levels because of a stupid Moroso pan that was f'd in the a.

On that note though..I called them and they are going to fix it for freez..so there not that bad afterall

But in that case I'm not touching pistons or rings..might still inspect bearings just to be safe.

Yes, only the headgasket..besides pistons I presume thats all I can do? The deck was milled and its got a thinner than paper high compression gasket on it right now..oem should bring it to 11.5-12:1 and a little thicker should bring it down even more. I'll probably shoot for 11:1 just so I don't have to use an inch thick headgasket lol, not something I really want to be switching out all of the time

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

Ya run a thicker headgasket such as a cometic and you will be fine. How long have you had the car? i would recommend driving it for a little bit to see how it holds up for now before you start throwing boost at it.

Thee_Antic

Brand is to be determined..heard mixed **** about cometic.

And I've had the car for three weeks, two of those were spend on jack stands. (Cv joints, tie rods, ball joints, wheel bearings. etc)

Car is still on stands waiting for the oil pan to come back..

Once thats done I'll probably drive it n/a for about a month (Its still fast as hell ) while aquiring turbo parts and then assemble/build it in the first or second week of june.

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

There is nothing wrong with cometic headgaskets. There is alot of talk about them having issues which was years ago when they had a built in o-ring on the middle layer gasket. Sometimes it would get pinched or not lay down and crush properly. They have since then done away with it. The main thing when it comes to headgaskets is the actual surface deck preparation. I also recommend using copper spray on both sides of the gasket surface for added security. A slight warp in the head can lead to headgasket failure just as easily as a wrong torque spec on the headstuds or a stretch on the headbolts. There are alot of ppl that run into issues and automatically assume it is headgasket failure. I have had a cometic on my ss cobalt for 5 years now, the car is running 20lbs of boost, and was on nitrous. I use to drive the **** out of it before I built my civic. My civic made around 450whp last year and I ran a cometic hg on it as well. Naturally, I plan on running another cometic hg this year and the car will make 650whp.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I would not try to bandaid this. In the Metro detroit area there are tons of machine shops that are affordable to replace the pistons back to OEM or that compression. E85 is so inconsistant in the Michigan area, that it can be very difficult to tune on. You don't know What ethanol content you're going to get.

No headgasket will do this quickly. you've got a high comp setup with small injectors and you'll need management over a chipped phearable.net ECU. you're got your work cut out for you, seriously. This is not as quick and easy as people are leading you to believe.

Sorry. Its just the truth

Thee_Antic

Not to be a dick..but I've got three people telling me yes, and one no.

I don't need a machine shop to change out my pistons..if I MUST go that route, I can do it. I am trying to avoid the headaches etc of tearing apart the bottom end. ..unless you meant regrind my current pistons to lower compression? Although I don't think thats possible

As far as ethanol..theres a station right by my house..a mobil 1. I would think that unless you are talking about actual variances in the supply of ethanol (aka every time a new truck load shows up, it brings a new ethanol count or w.e.) then I should be relatively fine..and why would ethanol suck so much here rather than say ohio or florida or wherever?

As far as the heasgasket..a lot of people I was talking to with turbo bmw's just leave stock internals etc. and put on a thicker headgasket..same with civics etc. How is this not easy nor efficient?

Injectors were going to get upgraded as soon as the word turbo popped into my head..I thought that was a given. And yes..I will be starting from scratch with tuning aka ecu.

Can anyone look over our two posts? I'm really not sure whos right, its just that hes the first person to tell me it can't be done..everything I've read says go with my bottom end set-up..

Thee_Antic

Oh and on a side note..the PO used oem rods..from what I've read theres people putting 630 hp on them..

Will they be fine or should I adjust my anti-bottom end mod gameplan?

Thee_Antic

Bumpity

Schister66

After going back to Premium fuel (in my new STi), I dont know that I would ever tune on E85 again unless it was the only logical option. It does have it's share of problems, but the power it makes is undeniable. I think for 300-350hp the current compression should be fine...if only a good, high-octane pump gas existed in quantity at a reasonable price. All your issues would simply vanish

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

I dont think the op is planning on bandaiding this together. I assumed he plands on upgrading injectors and having his car properly tuned. He has confirmed this as well. His bottom end will be fine to throw some boost to with a thicker head gasket. Yes the compression is a little high for 93 but it is still do-able with a competent tuner. It is definatly within reason with e85. Im not aware of the variances of e85 in michigan but i know here in indiana i can still make peak torque on e70 as long as im not tuned on the ragged edge. His goal of 300-350 will not put him on the ragged edge of tuning using e85. Surely the tuner will understand that the ethanol cannot be used like c16/q16.

First thing I will say is that The Shodan fills his threads with very useful information. He is one of the most reputable ppl to turn to for advise on this forum.

For the ethanol content question refer to my response to the shodan ^^
Another thing about ethanol is that you should change your oil much more frequently because it seeps into the oil and will sit on top. This means that you can run the risk of lubrication failure if the ethanol content in your oil is too high.


The main problem with ethanol is not so much about the fuel but about how some ppl treat it as race gas. Not just that but also what i mentioned above ^^

Schister66

^^It is a good substitute for race gas though...it's oxygenated, has a 105+ octane rating, but it doesn't cost $6.50/gal. If it were more available throughout the midwest, I would probably go back to it. In fact, after I get a Cobb AP, I'm finding an E85 and Premium map for my current setup.

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

Oh for sure. I love the ****. I switched over to it last year and plan on sticking with it. Just have to be a little more cautious and keep up on maintainence a little more.

socallmechris

how much could he realistically drop his compression with a thick head gasket? .4-.5? that would still leave him around 12:1 if he's at 12.5ish :1

4cylfiend

iTrader: (1)

If he goes with one that is mls 0.076 it will drop the compression down quite a bit.

Also he is guessing that it is 12.5:1 right now. After he pulls the head off it may not even have these internals as listed, you never know.

Thee_Antic

Bringing this thread back from the dead!

I'm way behind schedule but its never too late lol

I ended up getting a Hahn 20g turbo off of a DSM, very low miles, should spool quickly.

Just piecing things together, and reading..A LOT.

Havn't pulled the head yet, but everything checks out. All the parts listed are there. I don't think the compression is 12.5:1 though. I'm about to go get a compression tester and I'll post the readings.

Thanks for all the help, I guess whether I run e85 or not depends on what my actual compression is.