Not specifically about sizing or horsepower, but there seems to be some advantage to running a more modern injector than the 15-20 year old Keihins that are on most b-series motors. I'm mostly interested in increasing the efficiency and improving driveability for my daily bucket, a mild b20z/p8r/itr clone piston build.

We're all familiar with the Injector Dynamics offerings and a few others, but I've recently been looking and found a ton of options. The specific ones that have my interest are the Siemens/Deka/Mototrons:

http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/107961-b-series-honda





They've piqued my interest partly because of the price and the fact that they retain the Bosch EV1 style connector, making them true plug & play with correct adapters.

Car people from Supras to Chevys seem to be commenting on the general improvements from moving to the newer style injectors, I'd love to see some discussion of the advantages/disadvantages of different styles along with some feedback from people with different experiences and data to back it up.

Discuss (technically!)

 

Once upon a time low impedance injectors were the best thing you could buy and they had the support and development of the OE manufacturers. In recent years however this development has essentially all shifted to developing high impedance injectors so the low impedance stuff is starting to get 'old'.

There have been different 'generations' of high impedance injectors with the Siemens injectors being one of the earlier versions. This injector technology has continued to be improved upon to bring us the newest generation of high impedance injectors which is a Bosch based EV14 injector and is what we offer at Fuel Injector Clinic. This technology offers injectors with high flow rates but also great performance at idle and light throttle which is where many aftermarket injectors can struggle. This is where the benefit of going with our latest injector technology shines through the most compared to older versions.

We have these injectors available in many sizes from 365cc up to 2150cc of flow. Our larger performance injectors include our specialized Data Match Technology which you watch a video on and can read more about by clicking the video link below:


This Data Match Technology includes advanced flow testing and matching both by slope flow rate as well as individual latency values which gives you an incredibly well matched set, something else you would miss out on with a different injector.

If you're going to spend the money to upgrade injectors I'd recommend taking a look at these to make the upgrade worth your while. We do what we can to offer the best products out there at a great value. If you have any other questions just let me know.

 

Thanks.

How about running at increased fuel pressures? I gather that I might be able to achieve better atomization with the newer style injectors without shortening there lives or any other ill effects. The older style ones seem to have some issues that keep that from being possible.

 

Sure you can run higher fuel pressure, but usually this is an option used when you need a bit more fuel supply. In theory raising fuel pressure can improve atomization but because there are so many variables in this situation, without an advanced way to test and confirm this (or at least do very controlled dyno testing) it would be difficult to verify the results.

Our high impedance injectors generally do very well at increased fuel pressures so it is an option.

 

How much retuning is typical for a change from the Keihin type injectors to say, your EV14 type? Is it normal to have to do much work beyond applying the correction factors for size/pressure changes?

 

Well with any injector change you should expect to retune, not just for scaling but because every injector behaves a bit differently as a result of the latency and other characteristics.
Every situation is different but I think it would be a good idea to plan on the possibility of needing to retune the fuel map to make sure everything is running exactly how you want it to be. Its possible some of it may not need to be changed, but better to check and know for sure.

 

Correct, got that. I should have included adjustment of the parameters in that. I would expect to have to do some retuning, I was mostly just wondering if it was typically significant in certain areas of the maps and not in others. That would tend to give me a qualitative indication of how the behavior of the new injectors compares to that of the old ones. I definitely would not be trying to get around retuning, i actually enjoy that part of the process the most.

 

I'm not familiar with this specific application so its hard to say to be honest but in theory the scaling would need to be changed of course and I would guess that the latency times on the newer high impedance injectors would likely be shorter. Its hard to say beyond that if any more tweaking would be needed but I'm sure some of the tuners on here who have experience can help answer this question with more certainty.

 

Cool. Thanks for your input. I was hoping more people would be interested in the subject. Hopefully some others will chime in as my post was intended to start a tech discussion.

 

Great thread!

So, where do the RDX injectors fit into all of this? I know they are a new(er) design, with great atomization and they too can benifit from increased fuel pressures. At ~$250 a set (pigtails and modified caps, ready to install) they seem like a killer deal. How far off is their performance from say an FIC or ID injector?

 

Absolutely, hope more will chime in... we always try to educate our customers so they can make an informed decision. Thanks for posting the thread.

 

I would honestly say they are on par performance wise with all of these EV14 based injectors I from our own testing the RDX like the ID's we where using really work well at 60psi base fuel pressure.I'm such FIC will give you some more feedback as there injectors get a very good rap these days as they are doing alot of research which means a better product to the end user.

 

Do you know what CC they were flowing at 60psi? I've seen numbers of ~510cc @ 50psi, I think. Just wondering about how they increase flow vs psi!

 

I will see if I can get HR Tuning to chime in i'm sure he has the numbers.

 

Just for a super basic thought on it, I recently went through 3 sets of injectors on my engine.
Set 1: Stock JDM H22A injectors
Set 2: Precision 1000CC low impedence
Set 3: ID 1000 cc

I switched since I changed a bunch on my setup and was running out of injector with the stock injectors (even on low cam).

The precisions were super hard to get the car to idle and were never consistent between runs, and even worse when trying to tune while conditions were changing on the road.

Once I went to the IDs life got simple again. They idle awesome, stay consistent so the tune is accurate, honestly I say they idle and maintain consistency better than the stock injectors did, while being approx. 3 times the flow!

There are obviously many choices, ID and FIC being the 2 most popular with Hondas, but the new style injectors are leaps and bounds above the old offerings, and even stock injectors in my opinion.

Granted, I am a novice tuner at best, just trying my best on my own car, since I don't trust anyone here to do it!

 

I actually did some injector testing on a K20A2 a few weeks ago, Ran the stock 310cc vs RDX Injectors vs FIC900s vs FICSP1050s All back to back to back to back.

Long story short, The FIC900s were the only injector's that were able to out perform the OEM 310's from a HP standpoint, and they did it by 3-4hp. The FIC900s also have a fairly narrow spray pattern similar to the OEM 310s.

The RDX Injectors used were flowed and tested, So i was able to use correct sizing and dead time data in the KPRO just like i was able to do with the FIC injectors that include a data sheet. The RDX Injectors known for there "wide spray pattern" which is true, Lost 2-3HP everywhere compared to the OEM 310's. All Injectors were ran at the same 58psi of fuel pressure. All Injectors also had great idle and drive ability characteristics, This testing was done strictly to see if there is power to be made strictly swapping injectors. Which we did see.

I will post a thread with more in depth information, and dyno graphs soon.

 

Good info. Feel free to contribute your data and findings here!

 

Very nice IPG guys with the RDX and larger injectors in a K-Pro the end of injection angle needs to be played with but your testing was done with all the same EOI timing I take it.

 

Hmmm, Im glad I stumbled on this..

Might have to think about switching up as my 650 precisions from when I was boosted are overkill on my NA ride.


EDIT: I dont have any issues, as Kenny (turbogixxer) did a great job of scaling my fuel maps.

 

I've been reading a bit on this, I think I might try to find a set of something newer than my obd1 Integra 240's. I don't need a bigger injector, but I'm really curious if there is anything to be gained in driveability or mileage by upgrading, a little extra power would be nice if it happens.

There's a lot of advancement going on with the technology as the fruit gets higher and higher up the tree for the oem's as they chase after better efficiency.

It seems obvious, better atomization at the injector nozzle means better vaporization at the back of the valve and less wall film accumulation... which in theory means more complete combustion and better use in general.

The real question is, am I chasing a problem that's even worth chasing on this setup?

 

We seem to get a OBD2a injector in the B20 CRV here in Australia its a very small bodied unit and flows around 260cc I have used them in alot of STD rebuilds and find them nicer to tune and fuel consumption is improved when using them.I will try to find part no from some of the spares I have laying around and take a pic for you of the unit.

 

Like this guy?

 

Wow, very interesting! Exactly the opposite of what I have previously read! Did you do any fuel consumption testing? Or street driving with all the setups? Just trying to get an idea if certain injectors are only better for certain purposes.

 

Bryan,

Do you have any data on spray angles? Specifically, what the difference (performance-wise) is between the OE style and some of the newer style injectors?

 

Good discussion!
Your quote above is correct, but if you take it one step further you'd simultaneously explain why RDX injectors, even with their great spray pattern, don't always make more power.

The reason is targeting. OEMs specify the deisred spray pattern based on the intake manifold they will be used in. Once you take an OEM injector out of it's native environment, the effectiveness of it's spray pattern is lost. Honda specified a spray pattern that made RDX injectors optimum in a RDX intake, targeting RDX valves. Change the injector location (with a different intake manifold) and you'll find they are no longer "optimum."

This is where a narrow spray pattern can be advantageous; as long as the outlet is aimed at the valve(s), the distance from the injector to the valve(s) becomes less important. The wider a spray pattern is, the more critical that distance becomes.