I have recently built the head on my H22 and put in some Skunk pro1 cams. Due to high lift primarys the stock ECU will not idle the car or run well at all so I bought and installed an AEM EMS 30-1001. After many hours of tuning I am left with a car that barely runs. The car will spit sputter and shudder constantly and will not idle long without stalling. The tuner did his best and traced the problem to the crank sensor. He data logged the crank sensor output and every time the engine shuddered there was no signal from the crank sensor. Does anyone have any experience with the AEM EMS and this sort of problem? I'm thinking of replacing the dizzy but I don't want to waste my money if that isn't the problem. I guess another question, is anyone using a AEM EMS on an H22 with stock dizzy and is working flawlessly?

 

I could really use some help.

I'm hearing from some people with vague similarities to my situation that I may have to go coil over plug. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

There are a lot of people running the EMS on a H22 with no problems. However you bought a used ECU so never can tell there. Also you purchased a 1001 which is 2 versions old. On the side of the ECU there is a sticker with a Rev letter what is that letter?

And the obvious question have you called AEM tech support or gone on the AEM forums.

 

I didn't buy the EMS used. I bought it new like 6 years ago and never got around to putting it in. I have the exact same thread in the AEM forums with no replys. I also called and emailed AEM tech support and they just suggested trying a new distributor. A new distributor from honda here in canada is $600, and I wouldn't be able to return it if it didn't work. You can see why I was hoping someone could tell me for sure if it would work with the stock dizzy.

I'll have to look up the number later since the car is in another town.

 

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/inde...c,23250.0.html

 

The first thing I did was search the AEM forums and this "fix" doesn't work for my problem.

 

Wait a second...

You bought an AEM because you couldn't get Pro1's to idle on your H22?

Every set of Pro-series cams I have installed, both B and H motors, I have tuned the idle to 800, smooth, steady, no stalling, warmup like stock...etc All tuning has been done on either CROME or eCtune. You can spend $5,000 on a MOTEC M800 with all auxillaries or get CROME 'free', regardless of the tuning system Pro series cams are perfectly capable of idling like stock - you just have to know what to do.

Video example of a mild H22 build with Pro2's I tuned a couple weeks ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGPPDerCYxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf-w01UnzgY

 

its a common issue.. stock Honda cam/crank sensors are gay. Find another distributor, see if that works. if it doesn't then there are a number of options. You can send aem the box and request that they change a couple of resistors to get a better signal from the stock cam/crank sensors, you can use the EPM module and convert to coil on plug, or if you want the easiest/cheapest way out of the Honda distributor, get the T1 trigger setup and keep the distributor for the spark only (don't use the sensors inside).

 

I appreciate all your input. It does seem to sound like the problems that I'm having are a combination between a weak signal from the crank sensor and the AEM EMS's ability to pick up that weak signal. Since getting a new distributor won't necessarily fix the problem I'm leaning toward converting to coil over plug. If I could find a way to just "try" a new OE distributor I would, but every place I called said they would not accept a return since it's a special order. The T1 setup is cheaper but then I have to get rid of my power steering and that is not going to happen. I got some thinking to do.

 

Try another distributor...

If in fact this is your issue I would sell the aem, buy an obd1 ecu tuning solution such as Hondata s300 etc & call it a day.
There is no reason for you to need to go through the trouble of going to coil on plug for your application.

 

the t1 sensor option can be done you will need to modied the way it is mounted not a big deal and if you did not want to go coil on plug its a good way to go

before to done this you can either check with a use dizzy from an other car i had this problem before solve by take a newer but used dizzy

 

Borrow a distributor from someone with the same motor and try again.

Who installed the cams? The skunk cams should idle on a stock computer. Are you sure the cams arent a tooth off or anything weird. Go over the install.

What was the shops name that tried to tune the AEM?

If you can't use Tony's trigger which I believe you can with some mods to keep the P/S. You can use the AEM EPM module instead and go coil on plug.

If you can get to the car. Set the motor to TDC on the crank and take a picture of the cam gears and post it here so we can all check to make sure they are timed right.

 

I'll try to find someone with the same car but that will be difficult.

I had the cams installed by a machine shop who degreed the cams to skunk2's exact specs. Although there were 3 typos on the sheet which had to be clarified during the degreeing process.

After initial attempts to start the car and idle failed using the factory ECU I went to skunk2 tech support and this is what they had:

My H22A stalls after camshaft insallation

by Brian Nichols

QUESTION
------------------------------------------------------
Hello,

I have an H22a in a del sol with skunk2 pro 2 cams intake, manifold, 70mm throttlebody, valves, valve springs, retainers......etc.
I have a problem with the idle !! It won't idle.
I have to start the car with a little bit throttle then when i let go off the throttle it goes out.
There is no ecu trouble code.
ANSWER
------------------------------------------------------
Pro Series camshafts MUST be tuned on a dyno with a programmable ecu in order to run properly.

The large primary lobes of the Pro Series camshafts will result in low vacuum at idle. The factory ECU will see all this air, and attempt to add fuel to compensate. The result is a lethargic idle that runs very rich, and in many cases will cause the engine to stall completely.

In order to fix this problem you will need some form of engine management. I recommend Hondata, as their products have proven to be of very high quality at a good price. Once you get some sort of engine management, you will need to have a tuner put it on the dyno. To fix the idle they will need to trim fuel by as much as 25%-30% in the 0 - 1500 rpm region of the fuel map. This will bring the air/fuel ratio into spec and result in a proper idle. Not only will you see a much better idle, but should also see significant power and torque gains through the entire rpm range after you are tuned.

So skunk says they will barely idle and require tuning. I will try to get a pic up of my cam gears so you can have a look. Also I went to a tuning shop in Kitchener Ontario that said they were familiar with the AEM EMS for tuning although they never mentioned they had never tuned a H22 on it. I'll also try to get that revision letter on the back of the ECU.

 

Who tuned the car?

 

As I mentioned, and Brian confirmed, the factory ECU is more than capable of running a Pro-series cam'd motor. By factory ECU, we are all referring to any Honda ECU (P28/P72...etc) capable of running a ROM editing software (ie: CROME, Hondata, eCtune...etc).

I can build you a basemap with the proper ignition, fuel and idle settings to easily start your Pro2'd motor. I will even put it on a chip and mail it to you. Do you have a chipped ECU laying around?

 

Thats sounds good, the only problem is I don't know anything about how to chip my factory ecu (if it involves soldering I can do that) as well as anything to do with crome or any other tuning software. I don't know if anyone would be able to tune it once it's in. Also to be clear, I didn't ask that question above. I have a 93 lude with Pro1 cams, flat valves and h22a bottom end.

Rtype16 you asked who tuned my engine and it was: Terry from Saisan Motors in Kitchener. He is more familiar with Hondata but he tuned more than a few AEM EMS's just not an H22.

Ok so I took a few pictures this evening:


The serial no. is 1001-0057

This is the exhaust cam the mark is at the 8

This is the intake the mark is at the 3

This is showing the TDC mark

I didn't get the TDC mark perfect in the sites so you can see the cams are slightly off line. I don't remember the cross marks facing down before but you can only put the gears on one way. The machine shop degreed the cams with their special tools and not by looking at the cam gear marks.

 

Can you do me a favor and rotate the motor over another 360 degrees. Than the cam gears should lined up the right way and take pictures again. Something looks off, but I can't tell cause the cam gears are upside down right now.

Can you post up a link to your calibration as well.

 

Can you turn on the flash on the camera, I can't make out the timing marks on the cam sprockets.

 

Ok I'll do a better job of it this time. It's difficult to make out the timing marks at all, let alone in a picture. And I didn't even think to rotate the engine another 360, makes me laugh.

I'm going to send an email to the tuning shop and see if they can send me the cal. I don't have a computer to do it myself.

 

Alright, I turned the engine over and this time I lined the mark up exactly to TDC. As you can see by the picture it looks as though the exhaust cam is a whole tooth off to me at least. That combined with an 8 degree advance can't be right? The intake looks in line with only a one degree advance. I know this could be affecting the idle but would it really contribute to the sputtering and timing errors?

 

I would bet money on that being the cause of all your problems.

I would remove the timing belt, reset the cam gears to zero, reinstall the belt, make sure sprockets and crank are at TDC.

A good base cam timing for Pro1's on an H22 is -1 Intake +3 exhaust. This is based on Skunk2 centerlines.

 

Thank you so much for your help. I'm glad that I'm finally on the right path, but at the same time I'm so disappointed in the machine shop I entrusted my engine to. They charged me $1150 to put the head on the block, check valve clearances and degree the cams. Now I only wonder what else they screwed up. From this error I spent $1000 in wasted tuning hours.

Now I'm wondering if I need to take all the covers off to double check if they lined up all the counter balances. I don't want to but I probably will anyway.

And one last thing. I remember from the first time I did my timing belt job that the cam center lines didn't perfectly line up. Is that normal? No matter what I did it looked like they were both a little off. I figured this was from a new belt not having broken in yes/no?

 

That is common when there is material removed from the block and/or head (decking/milling).

As the deck height is reduced, the cam sprockets will advance.

I cannot say for sure what the "rule of thumb" is for H-series motors, but for B-series it is ~1* advance for every 0.015" of deck height reduction. Just remember to keep the crank perfectly at TDC and let the cams take up the slack.

 

I fixed my one cam gear this evening and realized that yes it was on wrong of course but in particular, the cam gear was one tooth retarted then the gear was advanced 8 degrees to bring it right back to 0. So essentially there was no advance on the exhaust cam. I haven't got it completely together yet but this valve timing fix won't do anything to get it to run better. At least the gears are on right. So I'm back to square one. I'll have to call the tuning shop to see if they can get me my cal. I was going to check the resistance value for the cam and crank sensor but I don't expect that to reveal anything. I might just have to take the risk and get a new distributor. But first I'd like to see what you guys think of the cal.

 

I am running the T1 cam trigger with power steering.It will work just fine.