Stuck Degreeing Cams H22

 
Old 01-31-2018, 04:06 PM
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Default Stuck Degreeing Cams H22

Ok so I posted before about if itís really worth degreeing cams. Well I was going to use my type r cams but now I may switch to skunk 2 pro1 and degree. Iím lost with after I find my 2 centerlines. What do I do with my cam gears when I find them. Rotate the gears so the marks are a TDC while on the center line degree? For example say my exhaust centerline degree is 108 degrees? What do I do with the cam gear? Iím lost. Watched videos but no one shows the cam gear adjustment.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Are you trying to degree the type r cams, or did you get the S2P1s? I only ask because there is no need to degree the type r cams, just set them at zero. The S2P1s absolutely have to be degreed though. I just went from type r cams to the S2P1s and literally degreed them yesterday... and again today. It can be quite confusing especially when there is more than one or three ways to do it. It also doesn't help that our motors are reverse rotation. The cam degree kit I got is for a clockwise rotation engine, so that further confused things. The kits out there for our motors are ridiculously expensive. It can be done with any degree wheel though.

I ended up using Skunk2's peak lift spec to dial my cams in. The opening and closing specs either didn't match up, or I just couldn't figure them out. Also I was coming up with more duration on both cams then what was cited on Skunk2's cam sheet. This was my first time decreeing a motor, so I'm still do not have total understanding of the entire process. So the peak lift for the intake is 98* ATDC. Once I got to 98* ATDC on the degree wheel, I loosened up the adjustment screws on the intake cam gear and rotated the cam until the dial indicator stopped moving upward. This set my intake cam at +2* advanced. Did the same with the exhaust, which peak lift spec is at 105* BTDC. I ended up with -2* retarded on the exhaust. Hope this helps.
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Are you trying to degree the type r cams, or did you get the S2P1s? I only ask because there is no need to degree the type r cams, just set them at zero. The S2P1s absolutely have to be degreed though. I just went from type r cams to the S2P1s and literally degreed them yesterday... and again today. It can be quite confusing especially when there is more than one or three ways to do it. It also doesn't help that our motors are reverse rotation. The cam degree kit I got is for a clockwise rotation engine, so that further confused things. The kits out there for our motors are ridiculously expensive. It can be done with any degree wheel though.

I ended up using Skunk2's peak lift spec to dial my cams in. The opening and closing specs either didn't match up, or I just couldn't figure them out. Also I was coming up with more duration on both cams then what was cited on Skunk2's cam sheet. This was my first time decreeing a motor, so I'm still do not have total understanding of the entire process. So the peak lift for the intake is 98* ATDC. Once I got to 98* ATDC on the degree wheel, I loosened up the adjustment screws on the intake cam gear and rotated the cam until the dial indicator stopped moving upward. This set my intake cam at +2* advanced. Did the same with the exhaust, which peak lift spec is at 105* BTDC. I ended up with -2* retarded on the exhaust. Hope this helps.
I am getting more comfortable with the centerline method. What I understand so far is after doing all the calculations and finding the centerline, I adjust the cam gear and either advance it or retard it untill itís at skunk 2 spec. For example letís say I find the exhaust centerline to be 110*. Skunk calls for 105* so I would have to move the cam gear to get to 105*. Iím pretty sure thatís how it goes.
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Old 02-03-2018, 07:25 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

But the 105* that Skunk2 calls for is on the degree wheel. You can't move the cam gear to change the degree wheel on the crank. So you move the crank until the degree wheel is at 105* BTDC, then you move the cam gear while looking at the dial indicator until the dial stops and starts to go the other way. There is some dwell in there, so to truly find center line I believe you note where the cam gear is when the dial indicator stops moving and then note where the cam gear is when the dial indicator starts to move the other direction. Right in the middle of those two is the true centerline. This is my understanding anyways.

I found these threads to be helpful. Maybe you have already seen them, but here you go...

https://honda-tech.com/forums/engine...ro-1s-3298713/

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...edown-2003538/
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Old 02-03-2018, 07:37 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
But the 105* that Skunk2 calls for is on the degree wheel. You can't move the cam gear to change the degree wheel on the crank. So you move the crank until the degree wheel is at 105* BTDC, then you move the cam gear while looking at the dial indicator until the dial stops and starts to go the other way. There is some dwell in there, so to truly find center line I believe you note where the cam gear is when the dial indicator stops moving and then note where the cam gear is when the dial indicator starts to move the other direction. Right in the middle of those two is the true centerline. This is my understanding anyways.

I found these threads to be helpful. Maybe you have already seen them, but here you go...

https://honda-tech.com/forums/engine...ro-1s-3298713/

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...edown-2003538/
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Old 02-03-2018, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
But the 105* that Skunk2 calls for is on the degree wheel. You can't move the cam gear to change the degree wheel on the crank. So you move the crank until the degree wheel is at 105* BTDC, then you move the cam gear while looking at the dial indicator until the dial stops and starts to go the other way. There is some dwell in there, so to truly find center line I believe you note where the cam gear is when the dial indicator stops moving and then note where the cam gear is when the dial indicator starts to move the other direction. Right in the middle of those two is the true centerline. This is my understanding anyways.

I found these threads to be helpful. Maybe you have already seen them, but here you go...

https://honda-tech.com/forums/engine...ro-1s-3298713/

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...edown-2003538/
hmm maybe thatís a different way. This is why Iím understanding. http://www.compcams.com/catalog/COMP...12_408-409.pdf
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Ya, there is a couple of ways to do it. That one by Compcams is for a domestic engine that rotates clockwise and is not an overhead cam. I don't know if I would go by their instructions. There are instructions by Skunk2 on that second thread I mentioned.
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:41 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Ya, there is a couple of ways to do it. That one by Compcams is for a domestic engine that rotates clockwise and is not an overhead cam. I don't know if I would go by their instructions. There are instructions by Skunk2 on that second thread I mentioned.
hmm ok. That one seems really short? Those are all the steps for it?
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:25 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Ya, there is a couple of ways to do it. That one by Compcams is for a domestic engine that rotates clockwise and is not an overhead cam. I don't know if I would go by their instructions. There are instructions by Skunk2 on that second thread I mentioned.
I also came across this video of a guy doing it the way I stated.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Yup, watched that one many times. They turn the engine back in the opposite direction, which you are not supposed to do. They still don't explain everything. They don't even move the cams. They just show how to find centerline at 0.005". I tried it this way and wasn't coming up with the right numbers. Though I think when I tried it this way my cams were not at zero.
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Old 02-04-2018, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Yup, watched that one many times. They turn the engine back in the opposite direction, which you are not supposed to do. They still don't explain everything. They don't even move the cams. They just show how to find centerline at 0.005". I tried it this way and wasn't coming up with the right numbers. Though I think when I tried it this way my cams were not at zero.
Ahh man. Iím really stuck here. I thought I had a way of doing it and now your convincing me otherwise. I wish I understood the way you explained but I just canít comprehend.
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Old 02-04-2018, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Yup, watched that one many times. They turn the engine back in the opposite direction, which you are not supposed to do. They still don't explain everything. They don't even move the cams. They just show how to find centerline at 0.005". I tried it this way and wasn't coming up with the right numbers. Though I think when I tried it this way my cams were not at zero.
Is this similar to what you were saying? Now in this video where is he gettin the .40 from for valve opening and closing?
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:40 PM
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Funny, I've watched this video a couple of times too. Great vid and this guy is awesome. Again, its not a Honda motor so take that into account. This guy is fabbing up his own stuff, which is awesome but also can confuse things. He makes a great point though, and is what I am trying to tell you. At about 26:45 in the video he shows you that the specs on the cam card are not lining up to what he is getting on his engine. So he has to go back to the cam card and adjust his cam gears to match up. If Skunk2 calls for peak lift at say 105* for the exhaust on the degree wheel, that means you put the crank at 105* and adjust the cam gear for peak lift at that point. The peak lift of the cam absolutely has to occur at the exact position of the crank. That's where you get max performance. He also says that the cam cards opening and closing specs are "wrong" which is true with my motor. Every motor is different, so I doubt there is an engine in the world that will line up exactly to spec. It's just a reference that they give you, hence having to degree your engine.
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Funny, I've watched this video a couple of times too. Great vid and this guy is awesome. Again, its not a Honda motor so take that into account. This guy is fabbing up his own stuff, which is awesome but also can confuse things. He makes a great point though, and is what I am trying to tell you. At about 26:45 in the video he shows you that the specs on the cam card are not lining up to what he is getting on his engine. So he has to go back to the cam card and adjust his cam gears to match up. If Skunk2 calls for peak lift at say 105* for the exhaust on the degree wheel, that means you put the crank at 105* and adjust the cam gear for peak lift at that point. The peak lift of the cam absolutely has to occur at the exact position of the crank. That's where you get max performance. He also says that the cam cards opening and closing specs are "wrong" which is true with my motor. Every motor is different, so I doubt there is an engine in the world that will line up exactly to spec. It's just a reference that they give you, hence having to degree your engine.
Ok, so the .40 at peak lift is confusing me. Wouldnít it be different for each car? And when I adjust the cam gear, do I use the crank to turn it or do as he does by actually moving the cam?
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by boostedblue23 View Post

Ok, so the .40 at peak lift is confusing me. Wouldnít it be different for each car? And when I adjust the cam gear, do I use the crank to turn it or do as he does by actually moving the cam?
and in that video I donít see him stopping at the desired centerline and adjusting the cam. He does it after he finds the valve closing degree, adjusts the camshaft according to that, and then when he rotated it landed on his desired spec. Also when we adjust the camshaft on a Honda is it by the actual cam. I donít think we can get to it because our cam caps lay over the whole cam. Thanks for the help itís much appreciated.
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Ya, I don't know how to better explain it without showing you. Those directions by Skunk2 make it pretty easy. You just set the cams off of the peak lift specs rather than the opening and closing specs. Doing it this way, you don't have to worry about the 0.40" value.
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:29 AM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Ya, I don't know how to better explain it without showing you. Those directions by Skunk2 make it pretty easy. You just set the cams off of the peak lift specs rather than the opening and closing specs. Doing it this way, you don't have to worry about the 0.40" value.
Ok cool. Also, did you do this with the 2 cam rail covers on, and what did you use the rotate the camshaft? I know you donít use the Crank to turn them.
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

What numbers are you getting for your measurements and what equation(s) are you using? Without knowing this, you won't get far.

And yes, you should always degree cams. Without degreeing, you won't know if the cams have been ground correctly by the manufacturer.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by boostedblue23 View Post

Ok cool. Also, did you do this with the 2 cam rail covers on, and what did you use the rotate the camshaft? I know you donít use the Crank to turn them.
Yes, the cam caps where on as well as the rails. I didn't torque the bolts to spec, just tight enough to hold the cams down. I have fancy Allen cap bolts in place of the factory cam sprocket bolts. Just used an Allen socket to turn the camshafts once I loosened the adj cam gear bolts. I also used bb's to lock Vtec on the #1 cylinder.



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Old 02-08-2018, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post


Yes, the cam caps where on as well as the rails. I didn't torque the bolts to spec, just tight enough to hold the cams down. I have fancy Allen cap bolts in place of the factory cam sprocket bolts. Just used an Allen socket to turn the camshafts once I loosened the adj cam gear bolts. I also used bb's to lock Vtec on the #1 cylinder.



when you did this were the valve lash set at zero? If so what do they mean by ďzeroĒ and is it all the valves or just cylinder one?
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Old 02-09-2018, 01:20 AM
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Yes, valve lash needs to be set at zero, meaning no valve lash at all and the rocker sits directly on top of the valve. But don't set it so tight that it is pushing on the valve and forcing it down or open. You only need to set it on the valve that you will be measuring off of. So just one ex valve and one in valve on cyl #1.
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:41 PM
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Default Re: Stuck Degreeing Cams

Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
Yes, valve lash needs to be set at zero, meaning no valve lash at all and the rocker sits directly on top of the valve. But don't set it so tight that it is pushing on the valve and forcing it down or open. You only need to set it on the valve that you will be measuring off of. So just one ex valve and one in valve on cyl #1.
Ok so even if the head was decked and Iím using either type r or stock cams I donít have to degree? Havenít made up my mind to use skunk 2 cams yet.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by boostedblue23 View Post

Ok so even if the head was decked and Iím using either type r or stock cams I donít have to degree? Havenít made up my mind to use skunk 2 cams yet.
I'm not saying that. You shouldn't have to, but if there was a lot taken off the head (and/or you really don't know the history of the head, meaning it's possible that it has been decked before), then it is always a good idea to degree the cams. If you know exactly how much was taken off of the head when it was decked, then you can use a head gasket with a thickness to make up for that loss. Then you should be able to set up the cams and crank to the factory timing marks and be good.
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Old 02-17-2018, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DarryCar View Post
I'm not saying that. You shouldn't have to, but if there was a lot taken off the head (and/or you really don't know the history of the head, meaning it's possible that it has been decked before), then it is always a good idea to degree the cams. If you know exactly how much was taken off of the head when it was decked, then you can use a head gasket with a thickness to make up for that loss. Then you should be able to set up the cams and crank to the factory timing marks and be good.
Any way to measure how much was taken off?
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by boostedblue23 View Post

Any way to measure how much was taken off?
I have no idea. Usually that is something the machine shop will tell you after they do it.
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