bigodub93

Looking for some help and knowledge. I have just finished my build and took it to the tuner where I was told right before I got on the Dyno that the compression is too low and he doesn't see it fit to be tuned. I had only put about 35 miles on the car and I started it ran it for 40 minutes with Lucas break-in additives. I believe everything is correct. We checked timing 3 times and did 2 valve lash jobs. What I need to know is are my numbers looking bad enough to pull the motor out and give it back to the builder. Do I really need to drive it to break it in. I think with everything I have the compression should be 8:1.1
It drives fine but I know that doesn't really say much.


This is how the compression test went.



6/8/15
Dry test

#1. 120
#2. 130
#3. 120
#4. 120

Wet test

#1. 180
#2. 175
#3. 150
#4. 180



Here's my setup

- cometic.40 headgasket
-b18c1 block
-ls crank
-ls scat rods
- Weisco pistons 82mm (8:7.1)
-b16a2 head
- 6angle valve job
- supertech valves, springs,and reatainers
-skunk2 tuner stage 1 cams

Dark_Teg

Do a leakdown test. If within limits tune it.

PyroProblem

Low psi numbers doesn't necessarily mean something's wrong. Consistency between cylinders is what you want and you seem to have.
A lot of variables not related to the engine can cause low numbers.
As long as it's not smoking excessively, I'd move forward with it.
Good luck!

bigodub93

I am getting a decent amount of smoke/vapor from the two catch can lines I have on the back of the block

bigodub93

I just did what you can kinda call a leak down test. I only have a harbor freight tool. As you know you can only put 10-15psi to it to make the gauge work. If it works at all. So I put almost 15 psi and it shows 5-8% drop in all cylinders. But I really can't trust that gauge and don't know where I can get a good one under $70. So I put 100 psi to the tool and could not hear any leakage thru the intake or the exhaust in any cylinder. But you can hear air coming from the oil cap and the catch can. More from the oil cap. And this is for all cylinders. But no. 3 you could feel a stream of air pressure from the catch can hose.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

how did you break in the rings?
seems like a lot of blow-by

PyroProblem

That Doesn't sound good.

Was it honed correctly by a trustworthy machine shop?
Piston to wall clearances correct ?
Ring gaps correct?
I would definitely contact your builder and keep him involved.

bigodub93

The builder said to run conventional 5-20 with a bottle of lucas break in oil additive. Let the car idle for 45 min then drain the oil and I'm good to go. That's the only instructions I got. Nothing specific for rings. My last engine he built he 4 years ago I turned it on towed it to the Dyno and started tuning with zero miles on it. Never checked a thing. What is a break in procedure.

bigodub93

This builder is trustworthy to me. He has built 3 motors other than this one that I know of and those have not had a problem. I did not ask those specific questions about piston to wall and ring gaps but he said it was put together right. When I told him about the numbers I was getting he said it seemed very strange and he has never had that happen before.

TomCat39

Break in by idle is bad imo. As well as the oil should be true break in oil, no detergents, no synthetics and no additives.

This is probably the most precise and detailed break in method that has been proven to work time and time again:

Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

It's best to use break in oil as it's high in zinc content and detergent free. It's not cheap. If nothing else, straight conventional oil is the next best option but make sure it's not a detergent oil, which is harder to find in the conventional oils now a days. Do not use synthetics or semi synthetics as they are too slick and inhibit the break in process.

Unfortunately, once the break in period is missed (which by the sounds yours is).... There is no redo's without tear down and rebore/rehone.

bigodub93

Should I spend the money and get a real leak down tester or just pull the motor

bigodub93

I talked to my builder today and his thoughts were that he thinks the rings are not totally sealed yet. He says to put at least 500 miles on it and go from there. Does this even sound right or am I just being fooled. I also made I video to show him so he could see first hand the smoke coming from the catch can vent lines.
Here's the video I sent him

PyroProblem

I think you should drive it semi hard and try to seat the rings and hope it's not too late. You gotta push the rings into the crosshatch on a fresh build and combustion pressure is what does that. Driving easily or just idling doesn't produce as much pressure and the rings just lazily seal up.


Read that article from motoman. I've used his method and so far it hasn't failed me yet.
If it still won't seal up better, I'd try and give it another hone in the car and throw on some new rings.
Good luck!

PyroProblem

IMO the rings (normal iron rings not chrome) will seal up the most in the first few miles of driving and as they break in, compression will increase, power will increase, and eventually it will stop smoking.

bigodub93

I will look into the motoman method.
Would it hurt if I still took it to get tuned in this condition. would pushing it on the Dyno be good for trying to seat the rings. I have a appointment for Saturday and didn't know if I should cancel or not.

B20VtecVillain

At this point I would try to put some higher rev miles on it with a lot of engine breaking from higher RPMs down to mid range then back up to the top of the rev range etc. You don't have to go complete WOT and redline it out, but I would definately put some miles on it using that driving method before taking it to a tuner and strapping it on the rollers. If the compression levels out a bit and smoking stops significantly after a driving session or two as described above, then I would say your ok to head to the dyno. If nothing changes after doing that, then I would talk to your builder about a fresh cyl hone and reringing it to restart the break in procedure. Additionally as mentioned above, I will also agree with the notion that true high zinc non detergent oil is crucial for a fresh engine, and idle break in is not recommended at all for a performance engine build and should only be used to run in factory style econo motors and small equipment engine rebuilds.

PyroProblem

You guys have any recommendations as far as brands for high Zinc non detergent oil?
Ive always just used cheapo gas station type brand oil that said "non detergent" on the label.

TomCat39

AMSOIL Break-In Oil (SAE 30)


It's 8 bucks a quart. Not bad, friction modifier free and high zinc and posphor.

The link I provided is motoman's method I believe. Didn't realize he's called motoman.

B20VtecVillain

Amsoil products are always good yea, also Comp makes their own break in lubricants as well. Cheap additive/detergent free Dino oil does work, and can be used In a pinch, but the extra zinc in the break in specific oil will help reduce any unwanted wear and help ensure an even wear in for metallic components.

m4xwellmurd3r

its kinda late for this, but my "break in oil" was a result if my overly generous application of assembly lube on everything. I douched the bearings and cams and every bearing surface I could.

first oil change freaked me out cause the stuff gives oil a really weird color/swirl pattern.

15k miles later and my engine runs great. burns some oil cause I used an old head, but I don't have any compression or blow-by problems

I followed motomans(?) method.

I was scared to at first thinking the engine would blow up if I ran it hard so soon, then came to the conclusion that if it was built right then putting down the hammer from birth wouldnt hurt it (after letting it idle and have the engine come up to temp)

B20VtecVillain

I agree with that for the most part as well, I have always let it idle up to operating temp, done maybe 20-25 miles of mid throttle, various speed acceleration and letting the engine brake itself frequently but without going full WOT or to the full redline for that short period, then I change the oil and let her rip. This has been my break in procedure for numerous B & D series Honda engines as well as a 420A, two 4G63's, 1 modular and 1 small block Ford V8 and a VQ35 and I have never had a single issue with engine break in on any of those engines over the years. My own B20V hybrid that I built nearly 4 years ago has 18k street miles, 150+ passes and countless dyno pulls going from 230whp NA to 440+whp now under boost and was broken in the same way and I had it at the drag strip pushing a 2500# EM1 chassis into the 12's on motor with just a tad over 100 miles on the clock and no issues ever.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

are you sure whatever instructions were given to you didn't mean 4-5 mins idle and not 45 mins idle?


My process:
let engine idle long enough to bleed coolant system
shut off
drain oil
new oil
throw her on the dyno to do about 20 meduim loan decel pulls, reving steadly (not fast) up to redline, decel through gears,
tuning some partial throttle while this is going on Maybe 20min run time if that.
shut down, drain oil,
put in new oil
ready for WOT tuning.

bigodub93

I want to Rev it higher but the original tuner put a rev limit of 4.5k on the car. So there is no way for Me to take it any higher. And I plan on going to another tuner so I'm not able to have the original guy raise it.

bigodub93

Tge worst part about this is I now know what to do if I decide to re-ring the motor. But I can't do anything really about the current situation. I have driven it at least 400 miles I ordered A good quality leak down tester so I have to wait to do another test. But I did do another compression test and here's the results

6/12/15
#1. 120
#2. 135
#3. 120
#4. 150
I really think I'm just going skip the dyno and re-sign the block next week and break it in right.

TomCat39

If you find the right place, they will do the break in on the dyno. With a custom setup that is the best way as the tune isn't there for break in. Running the car hard without a tune is potentially disastrous.

The place I found that does chrome by me will do a break in/tune and you go back after the break in is complete and do the full power tune to get the most out of the motor.

Initial start up will be done there and do the initial motoman mustang dyno break in. They burn that turn to chip, you run it awhile (another 1500 KM or so?) then go back and get it re-tuned to get every last bit out of her.