SR20S13

dude you seem obsessed with spoon just saying, it seems ever time I see you posting its something about the way spoon does something

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

im just curious how far they go with their work. why not
they seem to be as OCD about it as i am. except they know what they doing lol

Rocket

What problems are you trying to avoid with these blueprinting steps?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

me?

i jsut want the engine to run really smooth,buzzing not clunking
i can hear my current one is not ballanced very well. i have a pretty good ear.

Rocket

Oh, I was asking the question in general.

From what I've seen, Honda cranks are balanced so well that they do not require any additional work.

98vtec

I'd love to know how you can hear your engine is not balanced well.

EG1834

LMFAO. Balancing is such a funny topic when it comes to the flat plane cranks, like in Hondas. I wish I could just open up a shop an advertise that I specialize in balancing flat plane crankshafts and can "balance them to 10,000 RPM".

For anyone who doesn't get it, flat plane cranks inherently balance themselves out as the counterweights are 180 degrees of each other and the mass of the two cylinders going down balance out the mass of the two cylinders going up. It doesn't matter what pistons or rods are used, it has no effect on the balance of the crank as long as they don't have an absolutely absurd amount of variance in their mass.

98vtec

Even at 10k rpm?

I have a hard time understanding how my flywheel bolts started backing out, balancer came apart, crank bolt backed out and intake can snapped if balancing and harmonics wasn't the root cause

But I'm all ears

Rocket

This underscores the importance of "unitizing" your rotating assembly. By "unitizing" in mean all components that are bolted to the crank shaft need to be SECURE. This includes clutch pressure plate, flywheel, and then main pulley. If one comes loose (on one end such as the main pulley) the rest will go too, oil pumps shatter, etc.

doood

iTrader: (1)

Robert, what are your thoughts on balancing the clutch/flywheel assembly with the rest of the bottom end? i hear so many different sides to this argument.

half will say do it and the other half says dont. my thinking is if you did balance them with the crank/rods/pistons and change the clutch/flywheel at a later time it would throw everything out of balance would it not?

98vtec

what i am saying is, how does this happen when it is secure?

everything was torqued to spec. flywheel bolts and pressure plate had locktite.

Oh and the oil filter started its way off as well.

to catch you up to speed, my engine was built by Don. If i wouldnt have found the things wrong with my block that I did, i would have never questioned him.

but after your engine nearly completely self destructs and upon breaking the engine down and measuring, you find your PTW at .065" and piston skirts ate to hell, standard ACL bearings in a AL rod engine, 12.7:1 static comp instead of the 14:1 I was told and asked for, shorter rod than what was discussed, 53lbs seat pressure with a .498" lift cam at 10.5k RPM....you start to question more than your own ability to torque bolts.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Resonance is not that hard to spot.

98vtec

In all seriousness, think about what you are saying. If you can "hear" or "feel" that your engine is out of balance; the physical internals, your engine likely would not survive a pass down the track.

Rocket

Don had problems and often didn't deliver what he promised. I am not sure if PTW clearance is useful if the engine "hurt itself."

53lbs spring pressure on the seat is fine. ITR runs 42lbs new (37-39lbs run-in) on the seat.

Yes, Don had a bad habit of telling people that he'd use Part X and wind up using Part Z out of convenience or a lil extra dough so he could drink his PBR and have a pack of smokes for dinner.

I wouldn't put it pass Don, that he forgot to do X,Y, and Z when building his engines. He had other concerns in his life and this, with the recent lack of passion for his work, led to shitty results at the expense of his customers.

Sorry to hear that you got screwed by Don. He was a good friend, but as time went by, his integrity had more holes than a hunk of swiss cheese sold at Costco.

There was a stretch, about a year, that I would talk to a buddy of mine and we would say, "EFF, Don, that Effen Bastard....." He "lost" about $1,500 of parts (cams and a trick set of Cunningham rods) I had sent him. I feel worse he never finished a motor my buddy had hired and paid him to build. Now, he's not among us and the stuff in his shop could be on Storage Wars or Pawn Stars. Hey look at that, that's my camshaft or connect rods YUUUPP has and is gonna sell for $50.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i wasnt expecting it to lol.
when the whole shop gathers around your engine bay while you doing a dyno pull on a mildly built gsr and then walk away with suspicious looks. that means something is wrong and they dont want to say lol

every time he did a pull everyone stop working and kinda watch my car and i had a feeling they were watching out for parts to fly.

im not saying its not ballanced to a point of failure but its definitely not as well done as type-r for example.
i can feel it in teh chasis too when i drive.
this is similar to an argument between people that can hear the difference between flac/wav file and highest encoding MP3 file.
some people can some people cant or dont really care for difference.
i was pretty obsessed with sound back in high school.and had about 50 pairs of headphones and 20 mp3 players along with other gadgets.
headphones resonate, so do speakers. and it is very clear sound when they do. engine and chasis resonate and they make specific sound as well.

98vtec

Regardless, the end result was me wondering more about the dynamics of an engine and not taking everything at face value. I've learned the hard truth that even some of the most respectable guys needs their work double checked.

oh and just to add more to it, the mains studs had maybe 50ftlbs on them and the cylinder bore taper was .0008+ in certain areas. also out of round about the same. I'll have to check my notebook. And i cant go over 55ftlbs on the main studs without going out of round and I can tell the block was align honed....

anyway, not trying to get off topic with Don and I'll likely never figure out everything that was behind the demise of my engine but I know one thing is for sure. I will never ever take someones word ever again. I will always double check their work.

and about the seat pressure. I understand that certain engines run low seat pressures but their lift profile may allow them to do that. After looking at what some of the bigger racers run as far as valve seat pressures, it got me wondering. Especially when you can see on the cam that the rocker has been jumping. But valve control is something that I dont quite have a grasp in understanding.

Rocket

Don would use the shitty Eagle crankshaft, because Eagle would blow them out at $400 for crank and rods.

Did you run a Honda OE crank?

If you can, build a good relationship with a machinist (a machine shop guy). You'll learn a lot.

One thing difficult on Honda's is getting the hone done properly, because there isn't enough clearance past the mains to "over stroke" the hone to get the proper dwell at the bottom of the cylinder. Taper is not so bad, but out-of-roundness leads to poor ring seal, leading to oil consumption, low vacuum, detonation (yes, detonation), ring/cylinder wear, piston skirt wear.

98vtec

I had very bad crankcase pressure from the getgo. It would blow the dipstick out of the housing but never once did it exhaust blue smoke.

and yes, I have been trying to find a good local machinist to speak with that is fluent with hondas and 4 bangers in general and I have recently. He doesnt have the fancy machines you see at RLZ but the man knows his stuff it seems and is working on the whole valve control thing with me. Hes a 4G63 guy so he's bound to have to know a few things to fix them :p

So what is more important to you? The hone grit or the angle of the crosshatch (i know there is more involved than that such as RPM, amount of revolutions...etc). Its the hone's job to bond to the ring so what contributes more?

Rocket

The most important for cylinders is roundness. This is achieved by using a boring bar and boring it, which corrects roundness and straightness. And then hone and finish hone with a shallow cross-hatch angle, 35 - 45 degrees. See diagram below.



Final finish should be smooth. With the precision of the machining to day, perfectly round cylinders will almost instantly seal with perfect round rings.

There's much more to honing than meets the eye. All we see is the cross hatch. There may variables to get the honing right: rpm, pressure, grits, hone selection, dwell, coolant/lubricant, finish hone pass, plateau brush, letting the part cool down (the part heats up from the friction of the hone). All of this needs to be done in order to get the surface prep right because after boring the surface has a microscopic layer of torn, folded, and stressed metal.

The most skilled position in a machine shop is the cylinder hone guy.

EG1834

Yes.

Don't misunderstand me and think I'm saying at some point they don't need to be balanced. You can't just take one from the foundry, machine to final dimensions, and then run it. They will need to be balanced from the manufacturer, but just because you are using aftermarket pistons or rods does not necessitate rebalancing the crank. Typical tolerance is +/-2g, which is more than adequate to turn it 10k RPM. The mass of all the oil slinging around the crankcase makes any attempt to balance to within less than that pretty much futile.

Nikos

when someone tested an american k24a accord crank 99mm vs a japanese k24a crank TSX 2006, at 9000 rpm, it was very clear which crank deflects more and which crank deflects less.

We used a 2006 CWT 5000 balancing machine to confirm this result.

Rocket

How do you use a crank balancer to measure deflection? Are we talking about deflection of the rod throw or angular twisting along the spine of da crank.?

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

How is the crank counterballance weight related to this? Why is itr crank heavier than gsr?
Theres so many speculations on the interwebs about gsr vs itr crank.

egb18c5

iirc, they saw a 20% reduction in vibration with the heavier counter weights on the itr crank.

EG1834

Curious about this one as well...