block guard question (not typical Q!) - Honda-Tech


block guard question (not typical Q!)

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Old 02-23-2017, 12:28 AM   #1
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Default block guard question (not typical Q!)

hi guys so i did a lot of googling and its better to not have one.
but ive never heard of this

story:
i bought a bare gsr block w/ caps and girtle and crank
came with a WELDED ON block guard(idk brand)

build:
b16 head
b18c1 block
b18c1 crank
p73 81.5mm pistons
basic all motor build with a 80-100(if 100 is applicable) shot of nitrous

its already welded on, is it safe to just run it? (i will be overboring its stock 81.00-81.25 the guy b4 me honed it before but didnt bore it)



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Old 02-23-2017, 08:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

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hi guys so i did a lot of googling and its better to not have one.
This is a wives tale propagated entirely on Hondatech, by people that have no idea what they are talking about.

As long as you align hone after you install the guard, and it's a guard made within the last 20 years, you shouldn't have a problem. I've never once seen any evidence of "hot spots", and there's no reason it should cause any heating issues as long as it's notched like the one in your pictures.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm personally running one on my very expensive motor.



If they were bad, then why do people think CSS is so great?
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

After spending some time looking at it, that actually IS an older block guard in your pics. My bad.

I don't know how comfortable I'd be running that personally.

This is what it should look like.


The older style like that actually is the kind that allegedly caused overheating issues. I've never personally seen it, but we're talking late 90s, or very early 2000s, so that's even before my time.

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Old 02-23-2017, 06:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

all i could find was "add"
i googled, found "add w1 block guard" on ebay
also one side looks slightly lower than other side
safe to assume i shouldnt run it?
i want the motor im building to last 30k-50k+ (hopefully 50k+)
as oem b series motor can last up to 200k



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Old 02-23-2017, 09:54 PM   #5
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

I'll let someone else chime in, but that looks sketchy to me too.

Are you going to do an align hone and bore the cylinders? If so, then I guess there's not too much to worry about, the cutouts on it seem larger than I first thought. I don't think it'll have any coolant issues if that's your concern.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

it definitely looks old, but it looks fine to me.
only thing I'd say is before running it, make sure to get the block shaved bare minimum for straightness, which should hopefully only be 0.001"-0.002". that'll ensure straightness and a fresh sealing surface everywhere, as it looks a bit beat up in some areas currently.
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Old 02-26-2017, 10:19 AM   #7
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it definitely looks old, but it looks fine to me.
only thing I'd say is before running it, make sure to get the block shaved bare minimum for straightness, which should hopefully only be 0.001"-0.002". that'll ensure straightness and a fresh sealing surface everywhere, as it looks a bit beat up in some areas currently.
Thanks for confirming.

I was pretty sure I read a few times, the proper way to install a block guard is to have it welded in. But I couldn't remember for sure so wanted to see if someone else brought it up first.

The other part I noted on this one, is the block guard seems to be placed right where the highest pressure point of the sleeve is. I thought this install looks superior to the press fit staked installs I've seen.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

as far as I know, it's supposed to be installed between 1/4"-1/2" below the deck surface, because it needs to be as high as possible to serve it's structural purpose, but not too close to the headgasket where it will negatively affect coolant flow through the hg. and welding is usually ideal
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Old 02-28-2017, 02:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

"Blockguards" Do not and will never work correctly because you can't put a precision machined piece of metal into a tapered opening (tapered from top to bottom and left to right, AKA draft angle for casting).

Blockguards cause overheating because they do not properly contact the inner and outer wall so the great thermal properties of alum over water can't be realized. It ONLY restricts flow and takes away from the water capacity, not to mention twists/stresses the hell out of the cylinders.

Hotspots?? Def a H-T tale!!!

Plus the blockguards pictured here have an even greater uselessness because they are not at the very top of the cylinder where cylinder pressure is highest and cracks start.

There is are real reasons thousands of cars are comfortably running over 700wHP with the CSS all the way up to the R&R Black Coupe that is running over 1200wHP. Proper fitment!!!
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:12 PM   #10
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Plus the blockguards pictured here have an even greater uselessness because they are not at the very top of the cylinder where cylinder pressure is highest and cracks start.
It's interesting you say this. When I was measuring my block, the wear was significantly worse right at ring level while the very top was in spec.

Yet you say the greatest pressure is above the ring's highest point.

That should mean that above the ring's highest point should be out of spec as much if not more than the ring's end point.... Yet my measurements didn't indicate this.
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:19 PM   #11
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It's interesting you say this. When I was measuring my block, the wear was significantly worse right at ring level while the very top was in spec.

Yet you say the greatest pressure is above the ring's highest point.

That should mean that above the ring's highest point should be out of spec as much if not more than the ring's end point.... Yet my measurements didn't indicate this.
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

Are you really going to argue that cylinder pressure isn't highest right below tdc? When piston is at the top of cylinder?

​​​​​This is why I should continue to stay off this site.

Let me know when you figure out why there is greater distortion (wear) down near the rings when piston is at near tdc.
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Old 02-28-2017, 08:39 PM   #13
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Are you really going to argue that cylinder pressure isn't highest right below tdc? When piston is at the top of cylinder?

​​​​​This is why I should continue to stay off this site.

Let me know when you figure out why there is greater distortion (wear) down near the rings when piston is at near tdc.
I probably shouldn't have a discussion with someone who has already closed their mind to any viewpoint outside of their own. But here goes.

I am not arguing the pressure isn't highest at the top of the cylinder. Obviously the ring's highest point is when at TDC. So we are talking the same instance in the motor. I fixed your statement above to match what I said.

By your words EXACTLY, I was commenting that when measuring, the effects of that pressure distorts more at the ring than at the tip top of the cylinder.

So doesn't it go within reason to have the "bracing" be at the point of highest distortion? More in line with the install seen here? If it doesn't please elaborate and explain and not, just cuz you said so.
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Old 03-01-2017, 02:43 AM   #14
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I probably shouldn't have a discussion with someone who has already closed their mind to any viewpoint outside of their own. But here goes.

I am not arguing the pressure isn't highest at the top of the cylinder. Obviously the ring's highest point is when at TDC. So we are talking the same instance in the motor. I fixed your statement above to match what I said.

By your words EXACTLY, I was commenting that when measuring, the effects of that pressure distorts more at the ring than at the tip top of the cylinder.

So doesn't it go within reason to have the "bracing" be at the point of highest distortion? More in line with the install seen here? If it doesn't please elaborate and explain and not, just cuz you said so.
Ever seen a blockguarded block go 8.5 @ 183mph? Ever talked to 10 blockguard users and not find one that cracked a sleeve? Ever cut a block in half to see exactly what the water jacket looks like? Have you ever measured around the entire water jacket to see just how non precise it is? On and ON!!!!! Yes, you can H-T keyboard lie and talk about all the fake friends and experiences that you have that dispute 20yrs of honda engine building and a product I designed which is by far the most successful cylinder strengthening process ever created. The CSS percentage of failures is near zero and there are over 3000 block worldwide. No sleeving company can even come close (sunken sleeve and leaking sleeve failures).

Yes, I am completely being an ******* because this site and the children who put cheap alternative in front of engineered solutions with there freshmen mechanical engineering knowledge **** me off. Wish I could not care like other, but I see so many clown who have never even built an engine poison the minds of younger builder. Causing them to build cheap which in turn costs them twice as mush because they had to build twice or three times.

Blockguards are 110% proven to be virtually useless. They only give a false sense of strength which allows naive tuner to tune like they should be with confidence. Like I said earlier, you can't put a precisely machined straight walled blockguard into a tapered opening and think its going to strengthen the cylinder. At best, where it does touch, its only keeping the cylinder from walking. But, in 20yrs of building engines I've never seen one that fit around all cylinders equally. OH YA!!! Thats because there is taper from side to side also!!!

What you are measuring is "WEAR" not distortion. When combustion occurs it pushes the rings outward again the cylinder walls. Where there is more pressure there is more wear.
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:28 AM   #15
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Yes, I am completely being an *******
Which doesn't help pass along your experience as it tends to not be well received.

People tend to shut down by the first sentence of assholeness and then miss all the important and relevant data.

To have expectation of everyone to know everything you do is foolish at best. It is your choice on if they can learn from you or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trickeng View Post
Blockguards are 110% proven to be virtually useless. They only give a false sense of strength which allows naive tuner to tune like they should be with confidence. Like I said earlier, you can't put a precisely machined straight walled blockguard into a tapered opening and think its going to strengthen the cylinder. At best, where it does touch, its only keeping the cylinder from walking. But, in 20yrs of building engines I've never seen one that fit around all cylinders equally. OH YA!!! Thats because there is taper from side to side also!!!
Yeah, you never asked if I thought the guard was of any value or not and yet are assuming I think it's the best thing ever.

I ignored my opinion that guards tend to be more of a hindrance than a help and that more often than not they are recommended against than for.

Instead I was focusing on, if a user is going to use one, where is the best placement in reality.

Quote:
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What you are measuring is "WEAR" not distortion. When combustion occurs it pushes the rings outward again the cylinder walls. Where there is more pressure there is more wear.
I know. Here is the thoughts behind that. Now I'm not an astro physicist so I really can't say but I do wonder, which puts more pressure onto the cylinder wall, the expanding gas or the ring with closer electron vicinity to the wall being pushed by that expanding gas.

From a novice's perspective, you should have higher electron repelling relationships with the ring and piston wall as the expansive forces of the gas above the ring and the force of the ring itself should be relatively close but the ring is in, old school concept, "contact" with the wall with a higher rigidity mass then the gas.

What the novice who is pondering doesn't have the ability to do is exactly what you mentioned, measure the outside of the sleeve and measure etc.

Now I am not sure you can cut the water jacket away to measure the sleeve without compromising the whole thing any way, maybe a radiation scan (CAT scan) might be able to get you the precise shaping and distortions but who's gonna blow that kind of dough on research besides the professional race industry.

Oh another factor in the equation is expansion. Most of the data you mentioned collecting is on a cold motor after the fact. We can't exactly see how everything is distorted when it's hot.

So, by all means do share your experience. But being a dick in your sharing just means you will see more improperly installed guards when no guard should be used at all. All because you were unable to reach out to very many people by simply shutting them down before you could get the message to them.

It's your expectations that are upsetting you.
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:40 AM   #16
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It's your expectations that are upsetting you.
Nope!! Its definitely the keyboard engineers/scientists. Knit pick the small details so it seems like you have a clue then spew theoretical jargon. If you even understood anything real world about what you wrote, you wouldn't be in here. And you definitely wouldn't need my help understand the internal combustion engine.
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:07 AM   #17
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CSS is good for the guys who don't want to spend the extra $600 bucks for a sleeved block which is fine and CSS has a place in the market for those guys. However people who want full potential and the ability to maximize power are going to choose sleeved blocks.

The sunken sleeve thing is laughable for the fact that sleeves just don't shrink, sink and all the crap if they are properly installed.
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

Jesus Christ, not this ******* idiot again.

Listen bro, nobody is impressed by your ******* blockguard you call CSS.

The fact that you think listing trap speeds has anything to do with CSS shows me just how ******* stupid you are.

Sleeves don't crack from HP, they crack from detonation. You simple ****.

Just because you boast about 3000 engines worldwide, that literally means jack **** to me. I've seen cracked CSS blocks with my own eyes you liar.

Now you can sit here all day and talk about your engine building prowess, no one one ever said that block guards keep cylinders from cracking, in fact, I've already explained it to other small minded individuals, the reason most B20 guys run blockguards is not to keep cylinders from cracking, (That's done by not having a garbage tune and not detonating), we run them to keep the sleeves from walking, since B20 sleeves aren't like other B series sleeves. But, I'm sure you knew that, having built 3000 engines and all.

Nobody said blockguards were superior to your little CSS you try SO hard to defend. In fact, I actually said earlier I didn't understand how people bash blockgaurds and then praise CSS, when they are virtually the same thing.

Every time you've ever posted in a thread on Hondatech, it gives us a little insight into what type of person you are. And by every post you've ever had, I can tell what an immature, defensive, short little man you are. I would never, ever, give my business to a company that runs itself like yours, with an owner like yours. And I'll make sure to steer everyone I can away from your pathetic little blockguard, and towards actual cylinder sleeves that do something, not smoke and mirrors like your bullshit you pedal.

I'm literally going to make it my JOB to steer anyone on Hondatech away from that ****, I'm going to bash the **** out of your product at every chance I get.
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:40 AM   #19
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CSS is good for the guys who don't want to spend the extra $600 bucks for a sleeved block which is fine and CSS has a place in the market for those guys. However people who want full potential and the ability to maximize power are going to choose sleeved blocks.

The sunken sleeve thing is laughable for the fact that sleeves just don't shrink, sink and all the crap if they are properly installed.

CSS is for everyone who doesn't want to chance a sleeve sinking or leaking.

AZ_CIVIC must be offering to guarantee full sleeves not to sink or leak!!! That is awesome since there isn't one company who sleeves blocks that hasn't had blocks sink a sleeve or leak.

NOT EVEN ONE!!!!

Benson's is actually loosing customers because of issues including sleeves dropping. And they have been around for ever and have a very good process.

So AZ_CIVIC is your go to for perfect Everytime sleeving or he will make it right.

Is it laughable that in over 3k CSS block only a couple have ever cracked a sleeve? K, B18, B16, D16, H, F!!!!! Only one EVER reported under 850wHP.

Sounds like just good for the cheap guys to me. Now that's laughable!!!!

Try actually seeing the product before H-T keyboard replying from BS you've heard for from other H-T clowns.

And the process is way less than $600 for a Honda block. FYI.
​​​​​
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: block guard question (not typical Q!)

The only one losing customers here is you Bozo, every time you post.
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:05 AM   #21
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The only one losing customers here is you Bozo, every time you post.
Don't need your business!!! Or any clown who thinks what you say isn't BS. Go get your blocks sleeved. I'll be around pumping out blocks all week when your broke and need a cheap solution!!!

Gotta love the FAKE NEWS!!! You've seen cracked CSS blocks!!! If thats not just a H-T Keyboard lie (which i guarantee it is), have the owners post up the pictures and how it cracked. I'm not scared of the truth!!!

Catastrophic failure will junk even the most expensive sleeved block. Drop a valve and you can crack a full sleeve, throw a rod you can junk a sleeved block ect!!!

How about you chew on this vid!!! Hows your car run??
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:15 AM   #22
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You're*
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:16 AM   #23
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CSS is for everyone who doesn't want to chance a sleeve sinking or leaking.

AZ_CIVIC must be offering to guarantee full sleeves not to sink or leak!!! That is awesome since there isn't one company who sleeves blocks that hasn't had blocks sink a sleeve or leak.

NOT EVEN ONE!!!!

Benson's is actually loosing customers because of issues including sleeves dropping. And they have been around for ever and have a very good process.

So AZ_CIVIC is your go to for perfect Everytime sleeving or he will make it right.

Is it laughable that in over 3k CSS block only a couple have ever cracked a sleeve? K, B18, B16, D16, H, F!!!!! Only one EVER reported under 850wHP.

Sounds like just good for the cheap guys to me. Now that's laughable!!!!

Try actually seeing the product before H-T keyboard replying from BS you've heard for from other H-T clowns.

And the process is way less than $600 for a Honda block. FYI.
​​​​​
Why would I be offering a guarantee? I have run both Darton MID and am currently running a Golden Eagle sleeved block. I have no reason to BS anyone since I am not sponsored or endorsing a product on behalf of anyone, these are real world experiences I have had. Now I did have a shop build me a block once who ordered Darton MID sleeves and the shop used a local machine shop to do the install. I did have issues with that block and it wasn't because of Darton Sleeves failing but the machine shop did not have experience doing that type of work. I later had a Darton Sleeved block that was done by Darton and never had an issue whatsoever.

Now is it possible that a company could screw up during a process and a block could potentially have an issue? Sure, what company in the world operates a 100% perfection without failures, how the company handles those issues is up to the company. For example Golden Eagles Warranty: Warranty and Customer Support - We carry the best warranty in the business. Lifetime warranty against sleeve cracking and sinking. We have on hand some of the most educated engine builders in the industry to answer any questions or concerns a customer may have.

Now price point: You claim your process is $300 or $350 but that does not include a finished process. I had my blocked sleeved from Golden Eagle for $1250 which included - Golden Eagle Sleeves, Bead Blasted, O-ringed, Bored and Honed I even think that included shipping to and back.

So how about you give us all a quote on the costs to have you do your CSS procedure, bead blast the block, O-ring it, bore/hone and incorporate shipping costs from 85085 to wherever you're at and back?
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:22 AM   #24
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BS PRICE!!!! Everyone who calls from this area is over $2000 for what you listed. Have them post that price online with exact services like I do!!!! They won't because its BS.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:12 AM   #25
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The stupidity of this pissing contest just goes to show the lack of maturity to have a meaningful and useful conversation that will actually help people.

I'm borderline on giving out temporary vacations for the slander being presented which is about as bad as 12 year olds in school.

I have very little tolerance for any sort of elitist projections and I will act accordingly.

I personally don't give a **** how good you are, think you are or wish you were. If you can't present yourself in a civil non derogatory manner, you won't be presenting yourself at all. Period.
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