Traction
11-21-2017, 07:56 AM
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Traction
not sure if this is the right forum but looking for different solutions for traction, making about 850hp in a turbo coupe on k tuned suspension, full slicks and skinnies, cut doors, gutted rear, traction/weight bar.
11-21-2017, 03:53 PM
#4
Re: Traction
One of the more important things that many don't even realize, is that it's possible to separately tune the hit of the clutch without reducing it's overall capacity. There are several launch control devices on the market that make this possible. The problem they address is that you need to have enough clutch to hold your engine's power in high gear, but that's actually waay too much clutch for a proper launch. Trying to fix too much clutch by taking power out can easily make the situation even worse. An excessively hard hitting clutch won't make you any quicker, but it can easily make you slower when it knocks the tires loose or causes a bog. There is a perfect amount of clutch that hits just right without spinning the tires, or breaking parts, or bogging the engine. The fix is temporarily withholding some clutch clamp pressure, which in turn temporarily reduces the clutch's torque capacity just long enough to get the car launched properly, without allowing it to blow thru the clutch at max power.
Here's a some "Psi" data taken from a hydraulic throwout bearing, while using a ClutchTamer to control the clutch pedal. This 1st graph shows a range of incrementally increasing amounts of "initial hit" available using a pedal based delay, basically giving you the ability to instantly release the clutch pedal to a precise point in the pedal's travel. This is important because it gives you the ability to temporarily withhold or "dial out" excess clutch clamp pressure, which would otherwise pull the engine down and cause a bog. Notice how quick and sharp the transition is from unrestricted pedal travel to delayed travel...
...This 2nd graph shows a range of secondary pedal release rates, all using the same "initial hit" setting. This gives you the ability to precisely and independently control the clutch pedal's travel rate beyond the "initial hit" point, which is important because it gives you the ability to separately control how long the clutch slips...
Launch control devices which feature inline fluid restriction, like the ClutchMasters, Magnus, and Tilton units, slow clutch pedal travel thru the entire release cycle... including that deadband travel near the top. No problem if you are launching from a full tree as you can launch earlier, but with pro-tree or flashlite/armdrop starts they add reaction time. When dialed in their pressure curve usually ends up looking like the 3.5 turn setting on the second graph, this more vertical pressure curve results from compromising to improve reaction time, at the cost of not enough slip time. Pre-loading the clutch prior to launch is pretty much required with these devices, an effort to cut reaction time to allow adding more slip time. Consistency suffers though, as you end up relying on your foot to find the same amount of preload each launch.
If you are using the clutch to shift, the problem then becomes that you can't "pre-load" the clutch pedal and still get a clean shift. Traveling thru that deadband part of the release cycle slows pedal return to the point the clutch slips way too long after the shift, so adding a "Magnus" style bypass solenoid for the shifts netted them an improvement in et. That et improvement may lead one to think that minimizing clutch slip after the shift is a good thing, but that's not true. They are missing the sweet spot of controlled slip after the shifts where the car's a little quicker, parts don't break, and you can keep radials stuck.
I don't know of any racers that prefer the inline restriction style delay after having tried a ClutchTamer style pedal based delay.
Here's a some "Psi" data taken from a hydraulic throwout bearing, while using a ClutchTamer to control the clutch pedal. This 1st graph shows a range of incrementally increasing amounts of "initial hit" available using a pedal based delay, basically giving you the ability to instantly release the clutch pedal to a precise point in the pedal's travel. This is important because it gives you the ability to temporarily withhold or "dial out" excess clutch clamp pressure, which would otherwise pull the engine down and cause a bog. Notice how quick and sharp the transition is from unrestricted pedal travel to delayed travel...
...This 2nd graph shows a range of secondary pedal release rates, all using the same "initial hit" setting. This gives you the ability to precisely and independently control the clutch pedal's travel rate beyond the "initial hit" point, which is important because it gives you the ability to separately control how long the clutch slips...
Launch control devices which feature inline fluid restriction, like the ClutchMasters, Magnus, and Tilton units, slow clutch pedal travel thru the entire release cycle... including that deadband travel near the top. No problem if you are launching from a full tree as you can launch earlier, but with pro-tree or flashlite/armdrop starts they add reaction time. When dialed in their pressure curve usually ends up looking like the 3.5 turn setting on the second graph, this more vertical pressure curve results from compromising to improve reaction time, at the cost of not enough slip time. Pre-loading the clutch prior to launch is pretty much required with these devices, an effort to cut reaction time to allow adding more slip time. Consistency suffers though, as you end up relying on your foot to find the same amount of preload each launch.
If you are using the clutch to shift, the problem then becomes that you can't "pre-load" the clutch pedal and still get a clean shift. Traveling thru that deadband part of the release cycle slows pedal return to the point the clutch slips way too long after the shift, so adding a "Magnus" style bypass solenoid for the shifts netted them an improvement in et. That et improvement may lead one to think that minimizing clutch slip after the shift is a good thing, but that's not true. They are missing the sweet spot of controlled slip after the shifts where the car's a little quicker, parts don't break, and you can keep radials stuck.
I don't know of any racers that prefer the inline restriction style delay after having tried a ClutchTamer style pedal based delay.
Last edited by weedburner; 11-21-2017 at 10:19 PM.
12-03-2017, 06:13 AM
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Re: Traction
Are you looking for ways for the car itself to have more traction in general or are you looking to find traction on launch? I would say if your looking to find more traction on the launch of a race, then a mixture of vht and mek will work without having to tone the tune down. if your looking to find traction for all around driving then you need to start taking power out of the car, or looking at your suspension and how you have it setup.
03-03-2018, 10:52 AM
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Re: Traction
One of the more important things that many don't even realize, is that it's possible to separately tune the hit of the clutch without reducing it's overall capacity. There are several launch control devices on the market that make this possible. The problem they address is that you need to have enough clutch to hold your engine's power in high gear, but that's actually waay too much clutch for a proper launch. Trying to fix too much clutch by taking power out can easily make the situation even worse. An excessively hard hitting clutch won't make you any quicker, but it can easily make you slower when it knocks the tires loose or causes a bog. There is a perfect amount of clutch that hits just right without spinning the tires, or breaking parts, or bogging the engine. The fix is temporarily withholding some clutch clamp pressure, which in turn temporarily reduces the clutch's torque capacity just long enough to get the car launched properly, without allowing it to blow thru the clutch at max power.
Here's a some "Psi" data taken from a hydraulic throwout bearing, while using a ClutchTamer to control the clutch pedal. This 1st graph shows a range of incrementally increasing amounts of "initial hit" available using a pedal based delay, basically giving you the ability to instantly release the clutch pedal to a precise point in the pedal's travel. This is important because it gives you the ability to temporarily withhold or "dial out" excess clutch clamp pressure, which would otherwise pull the engine down and cause a bog. Notice how quick and sharp the transition is from unrestricted pedal travel to delayed travel...
...This 2nd graph shows a range of secondary pedal release rates, all using the same "initial hit" setting. This gives you the ability to precisely and independently control the clutch pedal's travel rate beyond the "initial hit" point, which is important because it gives you the ability to separately control how long the clutch slips...
Launch control devices which feature inline fluid restriction, like the ClutchMasters, Magnus, and Tilton units, slow clutch pedal travel thru the entire release cycle... including that deadband travel near the top. No problem if you are launching from a full tree as you can launch earlier, but with pro-tree or flashlite/armdrop starts they add reaction time. When dialed in their pressure curve usually ends up looking like the 3.5 turn setting on the second graph, this more vertical pressure curve results from compromising to improve reaction time, at the cost of not enough slip time. Pre-loading the clutch prior to launch is pretty much required with these devices, an effort to cut reaction time to allow adding more slip time. Consistency suffers though, as you end up relying on your foot to find the same amount of preload each launch.
If you are using the clutch to shift, the problem then becomes that you can't "pre-load" the clutch pedal and still get a clean shift. Traveling thru that deadband part of the release cycle slows pedal return to the point the clutch slips way too long after the shift, so adding a "Magnus" style bypass solenoid for the shifts netted them an improvement in et. That et improvement may lead one to think that minimizing clutch slip after the shift is a good thing, but that's not true. They are missing the sweet spot of controlled slip after the shifts where the car's a little quicker, parts don't break, and you can keep radials stuck.
I don't know of any racers that prefer the inline restriction style delay after having tried a ClutchTamer style pedal based delay.
Here's a some "Psi" data taken from a hydraulic throwout bearing, while using a ClutchTamer to control the clutch pedal. This 1st graph shows a range of incrementally increasing amounts of "initial hit" available using a pedal based delay, basically giving you the ability to instantly release the clutch pedal to a precise point in the pedal's travel. This is important because it gives you the ability to temporarily withhold or "dial out" excess clutch clamp pressure, which would otherwise pull the engine down and cause a bog. Notice how quick and sharp the transition is from unrestricted pedal travel to delayed travel...
...This 2nd graph shows a range of secondary pedal release rates, all using the same "initial hit" setting. This gives you the ability to precisely and independently control the clutch pedal's travel rate beyond the "initial hit" point, which is important because it gives you the ability to separately control how long the clutch slips...
Launch control devices which feature inline fluid restriction, like the ClutchMasters, Magnus, and Tilton units, slow clutch pedal travel thru the entire release cycle... including that deadband travel near the top. No problem if you are launching from a full tree as you can launch earlier, but with pro-tree or flashlite/armdrop starts they add reaction time. When dialed in their pressure curve usually ends up looking like the 3.5 turn setting on the second graph, this more vertical pressure curve results from compromising to improve reaction time, at the cost of not enough slip time. Pre-loading the clutch prior to launch is pretty much required with these devices, an effort to cut reaction time to allow adding more slip time. Consistency suffers though, as you end up relying on your foot to find the same amount of preload each launch.
If you are using the clutch to shift, the problem then becomes that you can't "pre-load" the clutch pedal and still get a clean shift. Traveling thru that deadband part of the release cycle slows pedal return to the point the clutch slips way too long after the shift, so adding a "Magnus" style bypass solenoid for the shifts netted them an improvement in et. That et improvement may lead one to think that minimizing clutch slip after the shift is a good thing, but that's not true. They are missing the sweet spot of controlled slip after the shifts where the car's a little quicker, parts don't break, and you can keep radials stuck.
I don't know of any racers that prefer the inline restriction style delay after having tried a ClutchTamer style pedal based delay.
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