Ok I have a 91 Civic that I installed a 97 D16Y8 in. The bottom half it "built" (eagle rods and SRP 10.5:1 pistons). I have a header, full header back exhaust, and intake on the car also. Will more than likely buy a small wet nitrous kit down the line.

Anyways. I have heard of people converting over to Ethanol for cheaper fuel, higher octane, cooler temps, etc etc. I am mainly looking for cheaper fuel. Not talking about 100% Ethanol, maybe a home brew E85 (they don't offer it here).

I figured this would be the best place to post this since you guys would have more knowledge about running alcohol. What all will I have to change to be able to run the Ethanol mixture? I am running a chipped ECU with dtalogging so tuning isn't really an issue.

What hardware will be required?
What is the average price it cost to make a gallon of Ethanol?

 

With ethanol at least around here it's really a lower octane. I would never run it in any performance vehicle. It's called E85 because it's 85 octane.

 

i thought the 85 ment 85 percent ethanol, could be wrong though

 

E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline.

Why would you not run it in a performane application?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LVB18Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With ethanol at least around here it's really a lower octane. I would never run it in any performance vehicle. It's called E85 because it's 85 octane.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hahahaha!! I love the entertainment on H-T sometimes!

To answer your question, you'll need double the fuel injector size, and perhaps upgrade the fuel system to handle the increased flow demands of nearly twice the fuel volume. You can run more timing and more compression when using alcohol.
E85 is great for a performance motor. 100% is even better.
The downside is that all the fuel washes the cylinder walls, so it'll shorten the life expectancy of a motor, but race motors usually get serviced more often anyways, so that point is moot.

 

E85 is 106 OCT
E98 is around 117 OCT EQUIV

The brake specific is roughly 1.5X of gasoline.....not 2+X that Meth requires...

 

So the stock Honda Civic injectors are what, like 230 right? So some 450 cc injectors tuned good should be able to do the trick.

 

thats about right...I havent used it in that small of an injector size..but that ratio seems about right...I have wanted to play with this more lately but its been real busy here...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AR Fab &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 is 106 OCT
E98 is around 117 OCT EQUIV

The brake specific is roughly 1.5X of gasoline.....not 2+X that Meth requires...


</TD></TR></TABLE>

yup, thats sounds right to me...

has anyone looked for ethanol sourse in CA?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Concept Tuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So the stock Honda Civic injectors are what, like 230 right? So some 450 cc injectors tuned good should be able to do the trick.</TD></TR></TABLE>

WHich civic? most D series are 190cc. GSR are 240cc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpeedDreamz.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

WHich civic? most D series are 190cc. GSR are 240cc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

For some reason I thought the Civic injectors were 230. They are the stock 91 SI Civic injectors. This is going to be more for daily driven cheaper fuel than performance. The car will be going nitrous down the road. The E85 isn't available here, it is in the lower part of the state, but it's the same price as regualar gas.

 

Only drawback to the ethenol is it smells like bad food when it sits around...and it leaves an oily residue.....atleast you dont need any upper lube with it....

Howard

 

What about the abrasive factor? I would like this engine to last me quite awhile since I just built it and it's my daily driver.

Is the E85 mixture really abrasive as well? I wouldn't be buying the E85 mixture since it's not offered here and cost just as much. I would be buying the gasoline and mixing the ethanol.

 

like said before you will need to flow about twice as much. You mention...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Concept Tuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am mainly looking for cheaper fuel.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

E85 would have to be half the price of gas to break even just in fuel costs (not including the cost to switch over.) Just something to look into because it might not be the best option if your looking for a cheaper alternative.

Also i have heard that the E85 will ruin all rubber and you have to switch to all braided SS lines. Not sure how true it is but its something to look into. Good luck either way.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Concept Tuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

For some reason I thought the Civic injectors were 230. They are the stock 91 SI Civic injectors. This is going to be more for daily driven cheaper fuel than performance. The car will be going nitrous down the road. The E85 isn't available here, it is in the lower part of the state, but it's the same price as regualar gas. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If this is your DD, then it would be cheaper to use pump gas on the street, and just buy race fuel for the track. 5 gallons of 106 race fuel won't break your bank.
It would also be an unknown road for you to tune your nitrous using E85 instead of gas.

 

Yeah I have been doing a lot a research and the cost benefit just isn't there. It would average about $.55 a gal cheaper to make the E85. While thats quite a bit it's just not worth the start up cost. Not to mention I don't have the amount of land needed to grow the supply, so I would have to buy it.

Whenever they move the pump E85 here I will probably do the conversion to run it. Simply since it's cleaner burning and doesn't have as much deposits.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpeedDreamz.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">WHich civic? most D series are 190cc. GSR are 240cc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wrong, most are 240cc except for d15b6, d15b8, and d15z1, which are 190cc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SVOboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wrong, most are 240cc except for d15b6, d15b8, and d15z1, which are 190cc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought I was close.

 

I'm not entirely sure, but that seems like the popular conjecture at least.

 

Yep your right, did some checking and they are 240cc peak and hold on the 88-91, and 240cc saturated on 92+

 

mmk, so most of you know nothing about e85.

Some new cars, mostly Fords, are flexible fuel vehicles. Which means the car can run e85, gas, or a combination of both.

Why would you want to run e85?

Advantages:
Its 100-105 octane.
Slightly cheaper then Premium.
Better for the environment.
Made in the USA

Disadvantages:
Hard to find
Requires 20% more fuel compared to gas.
Corrosive and fuel system needs to be changed to accomodate.


Now I haven’t changed my fuel system yet, but I think I will because so far I like the results.

I had to change my global injector size from 1320cc to 1050cc to get the A/F back to stoich. So you can see it does require a beefed up fuel system compared to running gasoline. I haven’t run straight e85 yet, currently I'm running 1/3rd 91 octane and 2/3rds e85. That nets me about 97 octane gas.

I have got on it a couple times, 24 psi with my normal street tune. I usually get a little bit of knock in 3rd gear, but with the e85 I get none at all. I'm going to tune and see how much more timing I can get.

Now for the downside;
I will need to change the fuel system components.
E85 is 85% 200 proof corn alcohol. It is very corrosive.
It will corrode/galvanize non anodized aluminum, steel and regular rubber.

To prevent corrosion, the steel hard lines need to be replaced with stainless steel.
The aluminum need to be anodized.
Rubber fuel line replaced with steel braded Teflon lined.
Rubber o-rings replaced with Viton o-rings
Gas tank need to be coated with corrosion resistant material or replaced.

The fuel system may be tolerant enough since they are already built to handle e10 which is what most of the midwest runs in the winter and some states year round.

 

From what I've read, the corrosion issue isn't as big of an issue as its made out to be.

Here is a 1000whp mustang on e85 running 3 intank walbro's and 8 160lb/hr injectors:

http://www.turbomustangs.com/s...094.0

Regards,
Justin

 

Its not corrosive at all...if E85 was it wouldnt be used as an alternative fuel....


Howard

 

E85 is semi corrosive to fuel lines. They do need to be changed. As far as everything else it should be fine. From what I have read most vehicles since the 80's are safe to run on Ethanol minus the fuel lines and a few other small things.