Classes, are they really fair?
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From: Oak Creek, WI, US
Classes, are they really fair?
Answer me this, what really is the difference that makes it unfair when you have a 600hp 4 cyl against a 600hp 6cyl, pretty must most 6cyl motor in the import world are small displacement under 3Liters, so why outlaw them......
What really is the big deal with 6 and 4, come on guys I want to race ya
What really is the big deal with 6 and 4, come on guys I want to race ya
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (fygtbug)
I think that it has to do with the fact that some of the sub 3 liter v6's are making more like +1000 hp...
Its rather difficult to match that with a 4cyl... its all about the potential power output, not what people are actually making... Fair or not, thats kinda how it is at the moment...
but that will likely change as the sport grows... the rules are in a constant state of flux...
what engine are you running? vr6?
Its rather difficult to match that with a 4cyl... its all about the potential power output, not what people are actually making... Fair or not, thats kinda how it is at the moment...
but that will likely change as the sport grows... the rules are in a constant state of flux...
what engine are you running? vr6?
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From: Oak Creek, WI, US
Re: Classes, are they really fair? (trboCIVICWRX)
Yeah VR6, when I started the car, there was a class allowance for 6cyl, 2400lbs vs 2100lbs for the 4cyl turbo...... Now if you have a 6cyl, you have to step up to the top RWD classes, or run street and have a full interior and glass....WTF
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From: Tuscaloosa, Al, usa
Re: Classes, are they really fair? (sold9secteg)
a 3 liter 6 with 600hp can make over 700+ lb ft of tq as opposed to 400-500 max on a 4 cyl. As most pros know torque is what moves ya.
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (sold9secteg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sold9secteg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can run Pro Stock, or Pro Street tire</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah at that requires a full interior and glass....... When I started this car, 6cyls were allowed into classes where only 4's are now, I took class rules into consideration and now I am left with basically $40000 worth of work and parts that have nothing because the sanctioning bodies change the rules in favour of 4cyls....
As for the Torque issue...... WTF is that supposed to mean......That to me is the dumbest comment ever.....but please explain yourt theory as to why because some cars make torque and others dont that this would effect class rules?
Jesus all I want is a class I can run in without having to go Full tube chassis and rwd to do so.....Now if anyone wants to give me $1000000 sure I'd be glad to.....
Yeah at that requires a full interior and glass....... When I started this car, 6cyls were allowed into classes where only 4's are now, I took class rules into consideration and now I am left with basically $40000 worth of work and parts that have nothing because the sanctioning bodies change the rules in favour of 4cyls....
As for the Torque issue...... WTF is that supposed to mean......That to me is the dumbest comment ever.....but please explain yourt theory as to why because some cars make torque and others dont that this would effect class rules?
Jesus all I want is a class I can run in without having to go Full tube chassis and rwd to do so.....Now if anyone wants to give me $1000000 sure I'd be glad to.....
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From: Oak Creek, WI, US
Re: (jdkindle)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NDRA Rulebook »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">• INTERIOR: Inner door panels, headliner, carpeting, and dashboard must remain. All air
conditioning and heater components may be removed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The funny thing about it all is, the only class I can run completely in this form is ET Brackets........ So all I have to do is get over the fact I cant run pro tree heads up.........
conditioning and heater components may be removed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The funny thing about it all is, the only class I can run completely in this form is ET Brackets........ So all I have to do is get over the fact I cant run pro tree heads up.........
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (fygtbug)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fygtbug »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah at that requires a full interior and glass....... When I started this car, 6cyls were allowed into classes where only 4's are now, I took class rules into consideration and now I am left with basically $40000 worth of work and parts that have nothing because the sanctioning bodies change the rules in favour of 4cyls....
As for the Torque issue...... WTF is that supposed to mean......That to me is the dumbest comment ever.....but please explain yourt theory as to why because some cars make torque and others dont that this would effect class rules?
Jesus all I want is a class I can run in without having to go Full tube chassis and rwd to do so.....Now if anyone wants to give me $1000000 sure I'd be glad to.....
</TD></TR></TABLE>
wtf does torque have to do with it? Where in the hell are you from? Dont you know where horsepower numbers are derived from? You seem to be the dumbass here.
First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.
Modified by 30psiCiv at 12:27 PM 3/30/2004
Yeah at that requires a full interior and glass....... When I started this car, 6cyls were allowed into classes where only 4's are now, I took class rules into consideration and now I am left with basically $40000 worth of work and parts that have nothing because the sanctioning bodies change the rules in favour of 4cyls....
As for the Torque issue...... WTF is that supposed to mean......That to me is the dumbest comment ever.....but please explain yourt theory as to why because some cars make torque and others dont that this would effect class rules?
Jesus all I want is a class I can run in without having to go Full tube chassis and rwd to do so.....Now if anyone wants to give me $1000000 sure I'd be glad to.....
</TD></TR></TABLE>
wtf does torque have to do with it? Where in the hell are you from? Dont you know where horsepower numbers are derived from? You seem to be the dumbass here.
First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.
Modified by 30psiCiv at 12:27 PM 3/30/2004
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From: Oak Creek, WI, US
Re: Classes, are they really fair? (30psiCiv)
OK you read me wrong I mean WTF does torque have to do with how many cylinders a car should have in class..... I know cars with 4 cyls that have higher torque #'s than their 6cyl counterpart, and vice versa.....
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (30psiCiv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 30psiCiv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
wtf does torque have to do with it? Where in the hell are you from? Dont you know where horsepower numbers are derived from? You seem to be the dumbass here.
First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.
Modified by 30psiCiv at 12:27 PM 3/30/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeh but torque is multiplied through the gears. just cause a low revving bigger displacement v6 motor is going to make more torque doesn't it mean it will out accelerate a high revving shorter geared 4 cyl.
wtf does torque have to do with it? Where in the hell are you from? Dont you know where horsepower numbers are derived from? You seem to be the dumbass here.
First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.
Modified by 30psiCiv at 12:27 PM 3/30/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeh but torque is multiplied through the gears. just cause a low revving bigger displacement v6 motor is going to make more torque doesn't it mean it will out accelerate a high revving shorter geared 4 cyl.
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (DIRep972)
Yes, but all things being the same a car with 800 lb-ft of tq will out accelerate a car with 400 lb-ft. That is all that I was saying. Torque is a very important number.
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (30psiCiv)
It sucks that you built a car them the rules were changed. Why don't you build a 1.8T up and run it? I would think you could make as much or more HP with a 1.8 motor as a starting point. At least you would have to give up the whole car just the motor. In my opinion you will need alot more power than what your VR6 is making anyway. You would need around 800 hp to run with the other cars in Hot Rod. With the 1.8 engine you could also be lighter that the old rules were with the VR6.
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From: Oak Creek, WI, US
Re: Classes, are they really fair? (30psiCiv)
OK so torque aside, that still doesn't answer why? when 90% of competeing cars even with 6 cyls dont make that kind of power..... I would actually say that below 3liters 4 and 6 cyl cars in the 500 to 700hp range are similar.......
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (GTPcrew)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GTPcrew »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It sucks that you built a car them the rules were changed. Why don't you build a 1.8T up and run it? I would think you could make as much or more HP with a 1.8 motor as a starting point. At least you would have to give up the whole car just the motor. In my opinion you will need alot more power than what your VR6 is making anyway. You would need around 800 hp to run with the other cars in Hot Rod. With the 1.8 engine you could also be lighter that the old rules were with the VR6.</TD></TR></TABLE>'
Well 1 because I have $40000 into this car, and I cant afford to start again, 2 if I was to build a 4 cylinder car, I would do a an ABA with a 20V head, or buy a honda......
Well 1 because I have $40000 into this car, and I cant afford to start again, 2 if I was to build a 4 cylinder car, I would do a an ABA with a 20V head, or buy a honda......
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (fygtbug)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fygtbug »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">'
Well 1 because I have $40000 into this car, and I cant afford to start again, 2 if I was to build a 4 cylinder car, I would do a an ABA with a 20V head, or buy a honda......</TD></TR></TABLE>
$40k, man that sucks. You are past the point of no return. Honda
Well 1 because I have $40000 into this car, and I cant afford to start again, 2 if I was to build a 4 cylinder car, I would do a an ABA with a 20V head, or buy a honda......</TD></TR></TABLE>
$40k, man that sucks. You are past the point of no return. Honda
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From: Stephens City, Va., 22655
Re: Classes, are they really fair? (fygtbug)
I would like to see something different out there. I think your on the right track with your car. I geuss youv'e tried to talk to the powers that be. If theres one thing that I have learned in this business is that it isn't always fair. I know the doesn't help but I don't think you will find any help on a web site. I would continue to looby the racing bodies and hope for the best. Good luck to you. I wish I could help.
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (30psiCiv)
well it sucks that you built the car and they changed the rules. maybe you could write some letters and who knows they may change the rules back later if there is demand for a class like what you want..
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 30psiCiv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, but all things being the same a car with 800 lb-ft of tq will out accelerate a car with 400 lb-ft. That is all that I was saying. Torque is a very important number.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeh, but I don't think you quite have the whole picture. Torque by itself doesn't tell you anything, you have to have the gears too. and its impossible to compare torque between cars, because the gears are all different. Thats why you need to know HP.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 30psiCiv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, but all things being the same a car with 800 lb-ft of tq will out accelerate a car with 400 lb-ft. That is all that I was saying. Torque is a very important number.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeh, but I don't think you quite have the whole picture. Torque by itself doesn't tell you anything, you have to have the gears too. and its impossible to compare torque between cars, because the gears are all different. Thats why you need to know HP.
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From: Currently in Florida
I am pretty much in the same boat as you. My only saving grace is that IDRC, NDRA and Battle still allow 6 Cylinder FWD cars to run the All motor pro classes. I am not usually competitive there anymore but I still show up when I can. With the proper weight restrictions your car could be competitive in any class.
I think you can still run the Pro import class of IDRC as your car was built and Battle of the imports may also allow you. As far as NHRA goes, your stuck in brackets, not a bad bracket to be in if you are consistent and run some numbers. Who knows after you make some events there and more people see your car they may let you run in Pro-FWD. That class has a problem filling up anyway so why not let a 6 cylinder FWD run there? Again, with the proper weight restrictions you would be competitive to a point. Even though some of the 4 cylinder cars there are making 1000+hp. With you in that class there would be less boring solo passes in the first rounds!
For NDRA, maybe you can run extreme inport, have lnot ooked at the rules but maybe.
I know a few people that built some nice VR6 turbo cars with no where to run. It really sucks and being a fellow VR6 guy I feel for ya!
I think you can still run the Pro import class of IDRC as your car was built and Battle of the imports may also allow you. As far as NHRA goes, your stuck in brackets, not a bad bracket to be in if you are consistent and run some numbers. Who knows after you make some events there and more people see your car they may let you run in Pro-FWD. That class has a problem filling up anyway so why not let a 6 cylinder FWD run there? Again, with the proper weight restrictions you would be competitive to a point. Even though some of the 4 cylinder cars there are making 1000+hp. With you in that class there would be less boring solo passes in the first rounds!
For NDRA, maybe you can run extreme inport, have lnot ooked at the rules but maybe.
I know a few people that built some nice VR6 turbo cars with no where to run. It really sucks and being a fellow VR6 guy I feel for ya!
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From: Stouffville, On, Canada
Strictly European found this out last year. They wanted to go race their VR6 at E-Town with the TurboSmart Civic (both from Canada) and they could not race in Hot Rod. I guess this is the reason they are building the car around a 1.8T this year.
I feel for you.. Same thing sux for 4 Banger RWD cars. Can't really compete with a 1000hp Supra in Sport RWD, and can't even get my car to the weight limits without adding tons of blast (My car has NOT been cut at all). Would be nice to build it like a Hot Rod car, but they won't allow a UniBody RWD to play!
Basically.. Classes can't please everyone.. You and I are 2 of those unlucky people.
I feel for you.. Same thing sux for 4 Banger RWD cars. Can't really compete with a 1000hp Supra in Sport RWD, and can't even get my car to the weight limits without adding tons of blast (My car has NOT been cut at all). Would be nice to build it like a Hot Rod car, but they won't allow a UniBody RWD to play!
Basically.. Classes can't please everyone.. You and I are 2 of those unlucky people.
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (DIRep972)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DIRep972 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeh, but I don't think you quite have the whole picture. Torque by itself doesn't tell you anything, you have to have the gears too. and its impossible to compare torque between cars, because the gears are all different. Thats why you need to know HP.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you miss the part where I said "All things being the same". That is a mathematical term. You would not know a hp number without knowing the torque first. HP = torque * RPM / 5252 . HP is just for braggin.
Yeh, but I don't think you quite have the whole picture. Torque by itself doesn't tell you anything, you have to have the gears too. and its impossible to compare torque between cars, because the gears are all different. Thats why you need to know HP.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you miss the part where I said "All things being the same". That is a mathematical term. You would not know a hp number without knowing the torque first. HP = torque * RPM / 5252 . HP is just for braggin.
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From: md
Re: (95GLX)
i feel the same way as most of the vr6 guys. i still dont think there has been a good reason given why they got rid of 6 cyl cars. and in all motor why they kept rotaries? it would be different if some vr6 cars came out and where smoking the fields consitantly. then i could understand. but it basically comes down to the fact that no matter how much power you have you still need to figure out how to get the front wheels planted.
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (30psiCiv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 30psiCiv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Did you miss the part where I said "All things being the same". That is a mathematical term. You would not know a hp number without knowing the torque first. HP = torque * RPM / 5252 . HP is just for braggin.</TD></TR></TABLE>
the same huh? You do realize that torque is multiplied through the gears though right? and you do realize that a 6 cyl making 600hp and 700tq is not able to rev as high as a 4 cyl making 600hp and 400tq right? and you do realize that the lower revving 6 cyl is gonna have to run longer gears to achieve the same mph as the 4cyl right?(tradeing torque for mph) so you realize that what you are comparing is not equal right?
Modified by DIRep972 at 10:49 PM 3/30/2004
Did you miss the part where I said "All things being the same". That is a mathematical term. You would not know a hp number without knowing the torque first. HP = torque * RPM / 5252 . HP is just for braggin.</TD></TR></TABLE>
the same huh? You do realize that torque is multiplied through the gears though right? and you do realize that a 6 cyl making 600hp and 700tq is not able to rev as high as a 4 cyl making 600hp and 400tq right? and you do realize that the lower revving 6 cyl is gonna have to run longer gears to achieve the same mph as the 4cyl right?(tradeing torque for mph) so you realize that what you are comparing is not equal right?
Modified by DIRep972 at 10:49 PM 3/30/2004
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Re: Classes, are they really fair? (DIRep972)
DIRep is right, you can have 600ftlbs of torque at 2k rpm, but how does it carry? Are you gonna shift at 4k? Why do F1 cars make SOOO much torque? I guess you gotta understand how gears work.