this is the relay i used....now i tried every combination possible, starting with the diagram on the back of the box for the relay, then suspendedHatch's diagram, then anything possible. the car wont start. the fuel pump is not getting power with the switch on or off. the only way it gets power is when it is directly hooked up (no relay or switch...just back to stock)...the switch is working, the fuel pump is fine, all the wires are correct. the only thing left is the relay or maybe the grounds (which i really dont think is it because i tried different grounds as well)...can you guys help me get this right?
did i get the wrong relay? is it possible the relay is defective?

i need this finished so i can drive my car again


Modified by alacard at 5:26 PM 1/13/2007

 

come on...wiring/automotive security gurus!! chime in and help me out.

 

i just re-read this: http://causeforalarm.thecarthing.com/howto.html
and the relay part number under his parts list is exactly the same one i got...so it cant be the relay. WHAT IS wrong? am i mis-understanding the diagram:

this is what i understand from that:

 

Lets see here. This is how I did my fuel kill.
30: fuel pump wire
87a: power input(dash side of power for fuel pump)
86:Jump wire from 87a on the relay( power from dash side)
85: Ground with switch to open/close the circuit.

Hope that makes sense. In short the dash side wire in your diagram should be on 87a not 87.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94_DC4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lets see here. This is how I did my fuel kill.
30: fuel pump wire
87a: power input(dash side of power for fuel pump)
86:Jump wire from 87a on the relay( power from dash side)
85: Ground with switch to open/close the circuit.

Hope that makes sense. In short the dash side wire in your diagram should be on 87a not 87.</TD></TR></TABLE>You wired your fuel pump kill switch N/C, [normally closed"]???


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alacard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i just re-read this: http://causeforalarm.thecarthing.com/howto.html
and the relay part number under his parts list is exactly the same one i got...so it cant be the relay. WHAT IS wrong? am i mis-understanding the diagram:

this is what i understand from that:

</TD></TR></TABLE> You understand correctly, however that is not the same diagram as the one on the back of the blister pack you show.
I think 94_DC4 got it wrong, for his to work relay would have to be energized for it to cut the power to the fuel pump, [switch off when car running.
But it's not a mistake you can make if the relay you have is the one you show, it is a SPST relay, there is no #87a. 94

PS you have an IM

 

yeah...im using the spst relay, he used the sdpt...thanks for the help though...i still have this problem though

 

I used the same concept as the starter kill for an alarm. Is there anything that I should be concerned about doing it the way that I did? BTW I am using a Bosch 5 prong relay.


Modified by 94_DC4 at 9:14 PM 1/13/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94_DC4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I used the same concept as the starter kill for an alarm. Is there anything that I should be concerned about doing it the way that I did? BTW I am using a Bosch 5 prong relay.


Modified by 94_DC4 at 9:14 PM 1/13/2007</TD></TR></TABLE> No there is not, [in fact it is a better way to do it] if you have a SPDT relay, the OP does not, he has a SPST.
You could step yours up a notch though, if the car thief is any good and he thinks you have a fuel pump cut off, he will simply bypass the relay, that's about 15-30 sec. to bypass, and I don't care how well you hid the relay and switch, he will simply run a lead from a fuse box free pin directly to the fuel pump.
You want to make him jump?
Connect the fuel pump side of the cut lead to 30 connect PGM-FI Main Relay side of cut lead to 87 and and 86 connect 85 to grounding on/off switch, now the jumpy part, connect 87a to chassis ground, thief will get nothing but sparks if he tries the bypass, or this will also make him jump, connect 87a to another relay and wire that relay to the cars horn, if he tries the bypass the cars horn will honk, nothing like the totally unexpected to make a car thief jump
By the way you can do the same thing with the starter cut relay. 94

 

That is some really good info. I am going to do this when I get a chance. Think you can post a diagram? I know it would really help alot of people. To the OP if you are in the So. Cal area I will help you out if you want.

 

thanks for the help...i still dont know what to do to fix this...should i buy a new relay and try it all again? would switching wires around mess up a relay without me even knowing it?..if i do buy a new relay should i go by the diagram on the box or by suspendedhatch's diagram?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94_DC4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Think you can post a diagram? I know it would really help alot of people. </TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah...even though there are a few how-to's out there for kill switches...i am still considering doing a formal very thorough how-to for all the others out there...because this is such a simple process that shouldnt be causing this big of a problem.

 

i tested the switch and the relay. both are working properly. i redid all of the grounds, still no fuel pump prime. ive done every wiring combination imaginable. i have no idea what it is. does the position of the relay matter? does it have to be RIGHT next to the fuel pump...i have it about a foot away maybe...thats the only other thing i can possibly come up with

 

IMed. 94

 

On your diagram you wrote that you're running the 86 to the ground on the fuel pump. The ground on the fuel pump is in no way involved. You are supposed to use the power wire on the fuel pump. That loop has to have power for the kill switch to work.

It's very unlikely that you messed up the relay. Get a 9v battery and touch 85 to its power and 86 to its ground. If it clicks, it's good. It's most likely that you would blow the fuse in your car if you did anything wrong, but you say it still works when you put it back to stock, so you probably have it wired up wrong.

It doesn't matter whether power or ground is run to 87, as long as the opposite is run to 30. The same with 85 and 86; unless you're looping it like I have in the diagram. If you don't like the loop I have as a shortcut, wire your relay the same as my starter/ignition kill relay. The thing with the loop is that it HAS to have power, so it HAS to be wired up as I have it. No reversing the other pins.

This IS extremely simple and I don't see how a more "formal" or thorough how-to would help. If you type too much, people get turned off. You end up making it more complex than it is. A diagram is 1000 words. There's multiple examples in the how-to. If you can't figure it out, it's probably over your head. I mean that it the nicest possible way. Some people just don't have a mind for certain things. You wouldn't see me trying to perform surgery or trying to play the jazz flute. Those things are over my head. Just like wiring a kill switch is over a surgeon's or a jazz flutist's head.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">On your diagram you wrote that you're running the 86 to the ground on the fuel pump. The ground on the fuel pump is in no way involved. You are supposed to use the power wire on the fuel pump. That loop has to have power for the kill switch to work.

It's very unlikely that you messed up the relay. Get a 9v battery and touch 85 to its power and 86 to its ground. If it clicks, it's good. It's most likely that you would blow the fuse in your car if you did anything wrong, but you say it still works when you put it back to stock, so you probably have it wired up wrong.

It doesn't matter whether power or ground is run to 87, as long as the opposite is run to 30. The same with 85 and 86; unless you're looping it like I have in the diagram. If you don't like the loop I have as a shortcut, wire your relay the same as my starter/ignition kill relay. The thing with the loop is that it HAS to have power, so it HAS to be wired up as I have it. No reversing the other pins.

This IS extremely simple and I don't see how a more "formal" or thorough how-to would help. If you type too much, people get turned off. You end up making it more complex than it is. A diagram is 1000 words. There's multiple examples in the how-to. If you can't figure it out, it's probably over your head. I mean that it the nicest possible way. Some people just don't have a mind for certain things. You wouldn't see me trying to perform surgery or trying to play the jazz flute. Those things are over my head. Just like wiring a kill switch is over a surgeon's or a jazz flutist's head.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for the help. I got it working. Turns out that I had the wiring wrong. I wasn't running power to the switch. I figured this out when re-reading your website's instructions. It says: "The fuel pump power wire coming from the dash is going to branch off to two pins. One side connects to the 87 on the relay, and the other side goes to your extended wiring to the switch.The other pin on the switch connects to 85 on the relay. The fuel pump connects to 30. Connect 86 to a ring terminal to a bolt or screw on the chassis." I had no idea I had to do that until I read that. I don't mean to be rude at all, but I really don't see that in your diagram. If it is there, please explain it to me. I had your diagram the entire time I was trying to wire this up and it seems to not flow with your instructions. This is the diagram I ended up drawing for myself:

and also what finally made it work. I know your instructions said to use a ring terminal and the chassis for the ground on 86, but I had already spliced into the fuel pump ground, so I figured I would use it. Please tell me if this is wrong. I mean it works..but maybe its not the right way, or the safe way?


edit: and yeah I may not be an electrician guru, but I should be able to follow instructions and diagrams, right?

 

LOL, I see what I didn't understand before you have #86 going to a ground wire, or what you assume is the fuel pump ground, I assumed that "loop" went to #87, [fuel pump power from the PGM-FI Main Relay] as it should have, and the switch should have been grounded to chassis, [so switch supplies the ground to the relay coil] meaning, if I understand you, you placed the relay close to the fuel pump, you cut the fuel pump power line connected the two cut ends to the relay, [#30 and #87] you also connected a lead from the fuel pump "ground" lead to #86, and ran a lead from the fuel pump power lead, [hot side of relay] up to the dash where I assume you have the switch hidden and from the switch back to the relay to #85
That makes for a lot of power wire, 12V+ running back and forth, you would have been better off if the "loop" from #86 had just gone to #87, 12V+ from PGM-FI Main Relay, [fuel pump power] and have the switch connected to ground and #85, then all that is running from the switch to the relay is a ground lead, and the worst that can happen if the lead shorts out is fuel pump power can not be cut and car will start no matter what position the switch is in, [on or off] the way you have it, if there is a short in either the power lead running to the switch or the power lead running from the switch you will blow a fuse.
Also as I mentioned, with the relay you have, SPST the relay must be energized, [on] for the motor to run, A SPDT relay would allow for it to be off at all times unless there is a theft attempt. 94

 

So you made your post without even bothering to read the instructions. You complained about my how-to and decided to write your own without even bothering to read the instructions. Good job buddy. I can see my time with you is well spent.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">LOL, I see what I didn't understand before you have #86 going to a ground wire, or what you assume is the fuel pump ground, I assumed that "loop" went to #87, [fuel pump power from the PGM-FI Main Relay] as it should have, and the switch should have been grounded to chassis, [so switch supplies the ground to the relay coil] meaning, if I understand you, you placed the relay close to the fuel pump, you cut the fuel pump power line connected the two cut ends to the relay, [#30 and #87] you also connected a lead from the fuel pump "ground" lead to #86, and ran a lead from the fuel pump power lead, [hot side of relay] up to the dash where I assume you have the switch hidden and from the switch back to the relay to #85
That makes for a lot of power wire, 12V+ running back and forth, you would have been better off if the "loop" from #86 had just gone to #87, 12V+ from PGM-FI Main Relay, [fuel pump power] and have the switch connected to ground and #85, then all that is running from the switch to the relay is a ground lead, and the worst that can happen if the lead shorts out is fuel pump power can not be cut and car will start no matter what position the switch is in, [on or off] the way you have it, if there is a short in either the power lead running to the switch or the power lead running from the switch you will blow a fuse.
Also as I mentioned, with the relay you have, SPST the relay must be energized, [on] for the motor to run, A SPDT relay would allow for it to be off at all times unless there is a theft attempt. 94</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think I understand what you mean. What you are saying would look like this, correct?:

Not touching the fuel pump ground, having the ground from the switch go to the chassis, and having the power for the switch going to 85 on the relay. See what threw me off from the beginning was the loop from 86 to the fuel pump power. It didnt make sense to me for it to go back to the power, so I figured it went to the ground for the fuel pump. I will probably go back and rewire it that way within the next couple of days. And the reason I used the SPST relay was again, because that is what was listed under the parts list. He does mention the SPDT, but it came across like the SPST would be the correct choice and the SPDT "would work, but.." I really appreciate the help you've given me for this.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you made your post without even bothering to read the instructions. You complained about my how-to and decided to write your own without even bothering to read the instructions. Good job buddy. I can see my time with you is well spent.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Lets not be an ***, please. I did read your instructions, I read the instructions you had on honda-tech, not what you had on your website. I didn't think they would be different. I also assumed that your diagram would follow the instructions. Your instructions state "The fuel pump power wire coming from the dash is going to branch off to two pins. One side connects to the 87 on the relay, and the other side goes to your extended wiring to the switch. "... To me that very clearly states that I need to splice the fuel pump power and have one go to the relay and one go to the switch. I didn't "decide to make my own how-to" or complain about your how-to. I simply said that I followed your diagram to wire this up, and it wasn't working, so when I finally got it to work I stated that I was thinking of making a new diagram that was easier to understand for those who have no idea what they are doing.

 

Now you're calling me an ***? Wow I'm so glad I took the time to try and help you. And I'm so glad that I wrote the how-to.

Do you realize what you're describing is the same thing? It may seem like a two different methods, but electricity doesn't care whether it's branched off the wire or branched off at the crimped connector on the pin.

How you are drawing your diagrams is completely off. Don't run the fuel pump wire to the switch! Also, conceptually, it doesn't make sense. Are you cutting off your factory fuel pump wire and running it to the switch instead, and then adding a green wire between the relay and the fuel pump?

The website is something completly different. Everything you need is right there in the how-to. Just stick to that. Plenty of people have followed it successfully and thanked me for it. Nowhere does it say to use the fuel pump ground. The fuel pump ground is a black wire.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alacard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i am still considering doing a formal very thorough how-to for all the others out there...</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Fuel Kill switch

Skill Requirements
Do not attempt until you posses all of the following:

Basic reading comprehension</TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by suspendedHatch at 8:01 PM 1/15/2007


Modified by suspendedHatch at 8:02 PM 1/15/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now you're calling me an ***? Wow I'm so glad I took the time to try and help you. And I'm so glad that I wrote the how-to.

Do you realize what you're describing is the same thing? It may seem like a two different methods, but electricity doesn't care whether it's branched off the wire or branched off at the crimped connector on the pin.

How you are drawing your diagrams is completely off. Don't run the fuel pump wire to the switch! Also, conceptually, it doesn't make sense. Are you cutting off your factory fuel pump wire and running it to the switch instead, and then adding a green wire between the relay and the fuel pump?

The website is something completly different. Everything you need is right there in the how-to. Just stick to that. Plenty of people have followed it successfully and thanked me for it. Nowhere does it say to use the fuel pump ground. The fuel pump ground is a black wire.


Modified by suspendedHatch at 8:01 PM 1/15/2007


Modified by suspendedHatch at 8:02 PM 1/15/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>
I said don't be an *** because of some of the comments you had left. I do appreciate your website and how-to's. They help a lot and are for a good purpose. Helping less informed people protect their hard work. But I didn't appreciate some of the comments you left on this thread. But anyways, I'll forget about that. So the very last diagram I drew up is wrong? the last post I left isn't correct? Please tell me if I am still not understanding correctly, because I plan on fixing the wiring soon.

edit: I'm not here to argue or insult anyone, so I apologize if thats what it has come off as, I'm just an electrician noob trying to get this right.

 

The last diagram you posted is correct, although the lead running from #85 to the switch is not a power, "and having the power for the switch going to 85 on the relay" it is a ground, [switched ground] from switch to relay.
Again IMO you should be using a SPDT relay and using #87a instead of #87. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The last diagram you posted is correct, although the lead running from #85 to the switch is not a power, "and having the power for the switch going to 85 on the relay" it is a ground, [switched ground] from switch to relay.
Again IMO you should be using a SPDT relay and using #87a instead of #87. 94</TD></TR></TABLE>
So would you say it would be worth it to go buy a SPDT even with already having the SPST? I'm assuming radio shack doesn't take returns on stuff like that .

 

Yes I would get a SPDT relay, take the one you have back, w/your bill of sale, and explain it's the wrong one, they may just do an over the counter exchange as they should be the same price, or just keep the SPST for when you need to turn something on, [fog lights, power trunk release]. 94

 

And when I get the SPDT it will be exactly the same except it will have an 87 AND an 87a? and I will ignore the 87?

 

When you get the SPDT wire it the way I did mine. Follow the directions I gave you a few posts back.