I'm looking to install a kill switch in my 2000 honda civic ex. What would be the most effective? I've been seeing FMC and a few other members say the main relay kill switch is best. Does anyone have a link on hand that they can post? TIA

 

I have been bouncing back and forth on this myself. I have bailed on the idea of using the PGM FI relay. Reason being is that I wanted to use the ground as the switch point. Not sure how a 2000 is wired up but on my 95 one of the two grounds is supplied from the ECM. I was told by a few that it will throw a code if it's cranked with the ground switch open. I suppose you could switch the fuel pump hot side, but I'm not a big advocate of switching the hot side, if I can avoid it. With a relay it's totally safe, I just prefer not to. Anyway, that's not my reason for avoiding the main relay. Unless you specifically know how BOTH the grounds will affect your ride I would think long and hard before using that relay. At first I was high on the idea because it affected the injectors and ECM. After learning of the extra ECM ground I'm not so high on the idea.

I have decided to do the ignition mod that one of the members here posted. I think its "suspendedhatch" that posted it. That seems like a straightforward setup and can easily be put back to normal without hacking up any OEM wires. That and the fuel pump cutoff, at the pump, should keep them thinking longer than they had planned.

I was also going to do the starter kill, but after I thought about it, I will pass on that one. It's a great idea, but with not having an alarm to make noise, I'd rather have a chance at hearing someone trying to crank it over, having it not start, and possibly me making enough noise to run them off.

As far as switches are concerned, some say to use a factory installed/appearing ghost switch. This alone would be useless as an undesireable could easily just start trying switches until he gets it right. These guys aren't totally uneducated, dumb yes. I'm not toally against the idea but think it should be used in conjunction with another switch you've hidden.

When I go to the bone yard to get the ignition plugs I'm going to grab some OEM wiring to use. There's nothing easier to spot then a generic plain wire color from a parts store, even if it's bundled in a loom. This obviously isn't a must to do, but I figured OEM wires might throw them off even a little more.

There are quite a few ways and circuits to kill. I guess it just depends on what you prefer and what you need to accomplish. The above is just my opinion.

 

The switch on the PGM-FI Main Relays ground, [constant ground for fuel injector relays coil, nothing else], cranking the engine with the ground open will result in the car not starting and that's it, it has never thrown a code, and to my knowledge none of the 100s of others I have done have thrown codes either.

I think the second ground referred to is the ECU/ECM fuel pump relay control ground, I have done many of them also without problems. 94

 

Hi FCM: After reading your post I decided to snoop around and see if i could dig up some more info.

The second ground wire must be allowed to operate independently. It comes from the ECM and opens in order to shut down the fuel pump after 2 seconds if the car has problems, doesn't start or reaches the required pressure. Once the car starts the ECM makes the ground connection again and the pump continues to run.

I guess I'm curious how you're wiring up these grounds.

The constant ground is a nobrainer.

In normal operating mode the ECM controlled ground needs to be able to open and close. If someone simply twists both grounds together and runs them through a killswitch it over rides the ECM's ability to open and close the ground on the second wire, and control the fuel pump. It will work as you say when the killswitch is open to stop the car from starting. No question about that.

However, when someone gets in the car, closes the kill switch, and the car is in normal operating mode the second ground needs to be independent of the constant ground or it can't shut down the pump. Twisting them together will keep the pump running, even when the ECM is trying to open the ground. What happens if someone gets in an accident and the ignition switch is ON, engine isn't turning (ECM senses this), and the ECM can't shut down the fuel pump because the ground is now tied in with the constant ground?

You say you've done hundreds of times, and I don't doubt what you say. Are you switching ONLY the injectors in some situations and ONLY the fuel pump in other situations? If so, I can understand it easily. If you're switching both circuits at the same time I would love to know your secret on how you give control of the ECM controlled ground back to the ECM.

Also, if you're switching ONLY one or the other how are you determining which ground is the constant one and which is the controlled one?

Thanks

 

Only the ground for the injector relay is used, although another switch could be installed on the ECU/ECM control lead to the fuel pump relay, also a low current ground, [probably less then 500mA] the two grounds could not be switched with a single pole, [one SPDT] switch, as you obviously understand.
If someone simply twists both grounds together and runs them through a killswitch it over rides the ECM's ability to open and close the ground

I am pretty sure I have never recommended anybody do that.

I think you misread a post about two grounds, it was about two black, [ground leads] going to the same terminal in the PGM-FI Main Relays plug.

On some Honda/Acura the ground for the injector relays coil is part of a "daisy-chain" ground, one of the black leads is the ground and the other is a ground for something else, both those black "grounds" must be on one terminal of the switch, [so daisy chain is not broken] with a single lead going from the other terminal of the switch to the relay.

BTW installing switches on both the fuel injector relays ground and the ECM/ECU control lead to the fuel pump relay would make it double redundant, I have done a few of them, [they also all work fine] but because the switch on the injector relays ground also cuts power to the fuel pump, I don't see a need for the switch on the ECM/ECU control lead.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The switch on the PGM-FI Main Relays ground</TD></TR></TABLE> So by doing this what gets killed? fuel pump? injectors? (the main relay kill switch)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ware &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> So by doing this what gets killed? fuel pump? injectors? (the main relay kill switch)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Depends how the relay is wired for your YMM.

You may find the ignition kill an easier install and just as effective. Why start hacking up wires when you don't need to.

 

Are you just looking for something quick that you can do to shut your car down without having to do too much? If you stop the thief from getting into the car then you wont have to worry about them stealing the car.

Get a good alarm system and reroute your hood release cable for starters. If you want to go beyond that, you can get stuff to protect your windows from being broken into, I think its called invigard or something like that. its like tint material, but 3 times thicker and with a glue on the back, it takes the thief 10 times longer to get through the window.

A fuel cutoff/ECM cutoff are good and fine, but remember that they can be removed with a little time and effort, but they have to get into both the car and the engine bay to do so.

Andrew

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ware &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> So by doing this what gets killed? fuel pump? injectors? (the main relay kill switch)</TD></TR></TABLE> If a switch is installed, [again, it is a low current ground needing only a 1A switch] on the ground for the PGM-FI Main Relay, it will disable the fuel injectors, fuel pump, a few engine sensors and one of the powers going to the ECU/ECM.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slimjim186 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You may find the ignition kill an easier install and just as effective. Why start hacking up wires when you don't need to.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hardly an easier install, "ignition kill" would require a relay and a switch, [or a big switch] it is "high current" and it is 12V+, not a "low current" ground.

Hardly as effective as it only disables the ign. circuit, easily bypassed at a number of places inside the car and in the engine bay.

Your not "hacking up" up any wires, your cutting one low current ground lead, no more then if you did an ign. kill. 94

 

Disabling the fuel relay doesn't make it any more effective than any other kill switch. Either the car can be started or it can't.

Everyone has their own preferences and it seems the trend of most of these threads are quick to point out the fast and easy approach. Fast and easy install only means a fast and easy override. If you disable the ignition under the hood you force the idiot to pop the hood, stand there trying to figure it out, and risk being seen. I consider that much more effective than allowing someone to lay on the floor of the car, hiding, out of sight, taking his time. Why give someone a place to hide while they do their work! That just doesn't make sense, especially when there are other options. Yes, those options may take an extra hour to set up but are worth the time spent doing.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not telling anyone that disabling the main relay isn't worth doing. All I'm saying is that for a little extra time there are other options that will force the bad guys to work at a disadvantage. Forcing them out in the open is one of them.

The bottom line is to make it as uncomfortable and as inconvenient, as possible, for the undesireable.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by digdug18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you just looking for something quick that you can do to shut your car down without having to do too much? If you stop the thief from getting into the car then you wont have to worry about them stealing the car.

Get a good alarm system and reroute your hood release cable for starters. If you want to go beyond that, you can get stuff to protect your windows from being broken into, I think its called invigard or something like that. its like tint material, but 3 times thicker and with a glue on the back, it takes the thief 10 times longer to get through the window.

A fuel cutoff/ECM cutoff are good and fine, but remember that they can be removed with a little time and effort, but they have to get into both the car and the engine bay to do so.

Andrew </TD></TR></TABLE>

They dont go through the windows on Hondas. Mine was broken into once and stolen the second time. Absolutely no damage to the locks or glass. They don't seem to have ANY trouble getting in. I've read that the windows can pulled out enough to reach inside. An Acura mechanic told me the window regulators are crap as well, and you can damn near push the windows up and down on most of them. I guess the locks aren't that difficult to open with certain keys either. Honda just seems to do a **** poor job of making them hard to get into.

I guess the flip side is if they're going to get in I'd rather have as little damage as possible.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slimjim186 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They dont go through the windows on Hondas.</TD></TR></TABLE>Say what???
Although pulling windows, slim-jimmying and "picking" locks are all ways to get into Honda/Acura, [and many other cars] busting the window is still the fastest and easiest way to get access into the car and the engine bay, [hood release].

If you think crooks don't bust windows on Honda/Acura your being nieve.

The same goes for crooks not wanting to be seen or draw attention to themselves, tell that to the crook with the flat deck that drags a car onto the flat deck with the wheels locked and the alarm going off.

Your right, to each his own, but I do not have to find the ign. kill relay to bypass it, all I have to do is supply 12V+ to the ign. circuit and although I do have to go into the engine bay to do it, I wouldn't be lingering around there, it would take no longer then clipping one end of a jumper lead to the batt., [pos.(+)] and the other end to the ign. lead, "poof" I have ign.
Now on the other hand with the PGM-FI Main Relay "kill" as a crook I would have to find the hidden switch, [that would be a very small, easily well hidden, 1A switch] or the relay itself, [if your doing a "stealth" install you would have relocated the PGM-FI Main Relay] the crook would know right away the fuel pump was not working, [he will not hear it prime] so will assume there is a fuel pump "kill", he would not start looking for it, he would just bypass it, no more then 60sec., [he has to remove a bolt], "poof" he has fuel pump, car still will not start, maybe he is smart enough to know it's an injector "kill", [also an easy jump, but now he has the get under the hood, another 60sec., car still will not start, he still has to supply power to the ECU and a few engine sensors.
You say he could just as easily find the switch or the PGM-FI Main Relay and supply the ground for the relay and you would be right, but that's what layering is all about, and that's why I also have a passive arming, latching relay, [with phantom switch] on the ECU/ECM control lead to the fuel pump relay and the Alpine alarm has both ign. kill and starter kill, both on normally open relays.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slimjim186 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess the flip side is if they're going to get in I'd rather have as little damage as possible.</TD></TR></TABLE>Now that I do agree with, a locked door is not, obviously, going to keep the crook from getting into the car, however he may do that, I prefer that he triggers the alarm when he tries to open the door, and you just know a crook will check to see if it is locked before he draws attention to himself by "breaking" into the car, nothing like the unexpected, [door not being locked and an alarm going off] to make a crook, sneaking around, jump and say sh*t. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ware &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm looking to install a kill switch in my 2000 honda civic ex. What would be the most effective? I've been seeing FMC and a few other members say the main relay kill switch is best. Does anyone have a link on hand that they can post? TIA</TD></TR></TABLE>


Op, please follow me and fcm advice on this. Please don't listen to the noob that fill this post up with rubish-&gt;slimjim186. If your main relay has one or two grounds. Cut them both and splice a switch to control the main relay or use a relay to have your alarm control the main relay. It will throw a check engine light if the car is tried to be started with the switch on. Its not a hard code and soon as the switch is turned back on the code goes away. This is the best kill switch for the bang for the buck. The fuel kill is played out and is easy to bypass. I have showed many customers and members this on there own cars. Inginition kill too. The main relay will do the fuel pump, ecu and injectors. If you want to tag more on the same line more power to you. Layers are layers.

Now lets break the noobs post down.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slimjim186 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Disabling the fuel relay doesn't make it any more effective than any other kill switch.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Now how is that. You say ignition kill. Okay, what about if a thief just tags 12 volts from the battery to the dizzy. The battery is right there. It not hard to do and the car will fire right up. so you have the played out fuel kill-Its better then nonething but sucks- the thief just tags 12 volts straight to the pump. And presto. A running car. Can you tell me how to start a car with out a main relay working. I would love to hear this.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slimjim186 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
However, when someone gets in the car, closes the kill switch, and the car is in normal operating mode the second ground needs to be independent of the constant ground or it can't shut down the pump. Twisting them together will keep the pump running, even when the ECM is trying to open the ground. What happens if someone gets in an accident and the ignition switch is ON, engine isn't turning (ECM senses this), and the ECM can't shut down the fuel pump because the ground is now tied in with the constant ground?

You say you've done hundreds of times, and I don't doubt what you say. Are you switching ONLY the injectors in some situations and ONLY the fuel pump in other situations? If so, I can understand it easily. If you're switching both circuits at the same time I would love to know your secret on how you give control of the ECM controlled ground back to the ECM.</TD></TR></TABLE>


You never take any control of the main relay. You just take ground from it so it does not work. Your not making sence in the quote above. If the switch is off and the main relay is on how is getting in a x-dent going to keep the fuel pump working? If the switch is off and the car is running the ecu does not know there is a kill switch on it. If there is one ground wire on the main relay you cut it in half and put a switch on it. If its two grounds wires cut both wires and put a switch between both wires. Twist both wires from both sides toghter and put a switch on it. Not that hard. If you want to start a debate on this please start your own thread. And let the op get the information that he needs. And please stop trying to debunk something that works and is proven. This is not the place to try to get your post count up.

 

O.k so all i have to do is find the ground from the main relay, splice, and attach a switch to it?

 

 

How do i go about making it "stealth"? Re-locate the main relay and hide the switch?

 

You talking about the main relay in the Driver under dash area correct?

Just trying to plan ahead for our up coming install this weekend. We are doing a rather large security including the "ear bledder" sirens, extra external sirens, tilt sensor and backup battery for a customers 94-01 Teg. He requested this cut as well, figured get the answer from someone thats done it rather than start from scratch.

 

Yes, the key is to either remove it from the factory location. Like i do on most installs and hide it up in the top of the dash. Or make sure if you leave it in it factory location that you make sure it looks stock. And if you use s alarm to kill the main relay. You sure as hell better make sure the alarm install is up to par. Or add a back switch to the main relay kill as well.

 

for sure i cant agree more, we see so many alram installs that are so incorrect our heads spins

When we do our installs, you can't even find the brain or trace our wiring. My install bay has 40 + years combined experience... were gonna take pics for the customer so he can play the "where is it at" game

So .. we need to take out the 2 grounds to the relay (so to speak) ... correct??

 

If you really want to keep the 2 grounds seperate, do what should be done - get a small DPDT (or DPST) relay. The single relay keeps 2 circuits seperate. You can also get them smaller, as well as cheaper than the chunky 30A DEI units. Digikey has some that are just a few bucks and a fraction of the DEI size, yet hold over 10 amps.

The other thing you can do to make a really stealthy switch is to use a magnetic switch. Using it to power a relay, you can use a miniscule reed switch, and any decent magnet put within 1/4 inch will turn it on. I have a little neodymium magnet with velcro on it - put it in the 'sweet spot' on the carpet, and the kill switch is bypassed. No theif would think to use magnet to steal a car...

 

Just browsing through here, and was wondering how the reed switch works. Seems like you just pass the magnet over and and presto you're in business. So my question is, can you wire a reed switch directly into a system, like say a main relay or fuel system in order to have a magnetic operated kill switch? Or do you have to use a relay?

 

The two wires are on the same pin. Just cut and splice a switch or relay there. Not all the time is there 2 gorund wires. Some are two and some are one

 

got ya ... but im yet to hear anyone say where this relay is at other than up under the dash.

Any info I can give my tech would be greatly appreciated.

 

you could switch the 12v to your injectors.. its relatively low current. Than it wouldn't start.. just crank. Theres so many different ways. Use your imagination.

 

Do not touch the current to the injectors, nor a relay or switch. It will cause issues. The ecu fires the injectors with a ground pulse. And if you mess up and send 12 votls down the line you will burn ur ecu