I have read too many post on here about people and their dimming lights and will caps fix it etc or second battery. Here is the low down on caps and second batterys.

Caps

First off, a cap is designed for your audio system, not your car. When the music has a dynamic peak and needs alot of power to product that dynamic peak properly (and most importantly, cleanly, not distorted) a cap will discharge it's power so the amp will not starve for power creating a distorted signal. A cap is for fast charge and discharge. You lights are a constant form a current draw when turned on. So a cap will not work to help this problem. Now, alot of people will add a second battery .. wrong again !!

Adding Second Battery.

Adding a second battery is great if you have done certain steps first, mainly upgrade your alternator. Honda charging systems are not the best in the world, but they are not horrible. Start out by replacing your stock battery with a better quality battery like a Yellow Top or SVR. Upgrading factory grounds esp. from the battery to chassis. When you add a second battery to you system you are just putting additional stress on your stock alternator. The stock alternator could no only keep the one battery charged before, but now it needs to try and keep two charged.
Example: One faucet designed to keep one sink filled to a certain level with a specific drain size. All of a sudden the drain gets bigger and the water level drops below the certain level. Now, add a second sink that the same faucet and water flow needs to keep filled up at a certain level as well. Not only could it not handle the one, but now you added a second ! I hope this makes some kind of sense to you.

Moral of the story

Don't listen to you buddy that says you need a cap because you lights are dimming and even worst dont listen to a shop. They obviously do not have the knowledge to steer you in the right direction.
Also, if you think that you need a second battery, chances are you are many steps ahead of your self. Start off with a better battery and upgrade some wiring and you should be golden.
thanks

 

another lost sole

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">another lost sole </TD></TR></TABLE> Ditto that. 94

 

Another lost sole ?? How many magazines have you been in?? I worked in the #1 retailer in the country. I have more install experience in my left pinky then you ever will. How many manufacture demo vehicles have you built?? ok !!

 

The know it all attitude is not going to get you anywhere here. I can 100% guarantee you the 2 techs that posted in this thread know more about electronics then you do and also have more experience then you do. Showing us a picture of some install is not going to prove anything. Do NOT turn this into a pissing contest or I will lock the thread. I can tell you from my own personal knowledge that a nice bit of the information you posted is inaccurate. I appreciate you posting this information in an attempt to help out other users but please refrain from lashing out people.

 

Lets see, I have been installing car audio for around 35 years, I have built about 50 "demo" cars, both SPL and SQ, and many more competition cars, also both SPL and SQ, I was an IASCA judge almost from their onset.
Although your post is somewhat accurate, it is misleading, you are correct, the cap is to supply current to the amp, in doing so that current is not drawn from the alt./batt. leaving it available for the rest of the cars electrical needs, including lights.
You are also correct that a 2nd batt. adds load to the charging system, but when installed with an isolator the benefits far outweigh any of the negatives, and you do not need to upgrade an alt. to add a 2nd batt., you upgrade the alt. when demand exceeds supply, a 2nd batt. does not add enough demand to need a bigger alt., a high wattage audio system, [or any high current load] is what requires a bigger alt.
So remember, before you shove your left pinky into someones eye, there are some of us out here who where installing car audio before you were nothing more then your daddies wet dreams. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleeperx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I have more install experience in my left pinky then you ever will. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You must be hanging out over at CA forum to much where they have Richard Clarks left nut stuck in there mouth.

Sadly Richard's article was on a specific cap but what he wrote get's applied to every cap made

Does an alternator produce DC current or AC current? How "fast" can an alternator respond to changes in current? These two things will answer why your lights flicker. If your lights dim and stay dim that's an entirely differnt issue and a cap will not help.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White Smoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can 100% guarantee you the 2 techs that posted in this thread know more about electronics then you do and also have more experience then you do. </TD></TR></TABLE> I just want to be clear here I am not a tech. Car Audio is a hobby, Install wise there are probably many people on here more experienced then me. I could probably install electronics with the best of them but when it comes to custom fabrication I would probably be considered middle grade.

I'm a design engineer by trade I design processors all day. I was an electrical technician for many years before I got my engineering degree. So anything electrical I know how it works But I never worked in the car audio industry. I worked on a few things that went to Mars.


Modified by nsxxtreme at 9:23 AM 3/26/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I worked on a few things that went to Mars.
Modified by nsxxtreme at 9:23 AM 3/26/2008</TD></TR></TABLE> LOL, I bet they had no light dimming problems. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I just want to be clear here I am not a tech. Car Audio is a hobby, Install wise there are probably many people on here more experienced then me. I could probably install electronics with the best of them but when it comes to custom fabrication I would probably be considered middle grade.

I'm a design engineer by trade I design processors all day. I was an electrical technician for many years before I got my engineering degree. So anything electrical I know how it works But I never worked in the car audio industry. I worked on a few things that went to Mars.


Modified by nsxxtreme at 9:23 AM 3/26/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

tech I been in the industry for 16 years and I still not fixing amps, lol , So i labeling you as a tech

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> LOL, I bet they had no light dimming problems. 94 </TD></TR></TABLE>

rofl

 

yup, pissing contest lol. wish I had something useful to post.

 

FCM .. well if you truly are a iasca judge then I am sure that you are aware of Jeff Leskey's Toyota 4runner. World Champion 1998 area. This was a system built in my old shop and tuned by myself and owner Robert Elliott (currently owner of ICE (in car experts) and editor for mobile electronics magazine.) We also had many other Iasca finalist along with 1992 olds achevie world champion. I am been doing this a long time as well, maybe not as long as you, but I worked side by side with one of the best in the industry. Just give me the respect that I have worked so hard to deserve, the same that I give to you.

I am just trying to explain to people that salespeople out there will try to sell them something that probably is not needed. The money could be put toward other areas in the system design to accomplish a high level of either SQ or SPL.
Design before product !!!

P.S. I have also designed my fair share of mid 160db vehicles, so I have a good level of knowlege not only in sq but in spl.

 

Caps don't really have a place in SPL vehicles. The problem arises on how people try to use a cap. SPL vehicles need current loads of it for long periods of time. Do you really think an SPL competitor walks up to the lane and says gee I sure hope my lights don't flicker? NO!! they would be better served by stacking as many batteries into the car as they possibly could, providing plenty of long lasting current.

SQ it's a similiar story. These large caps are made to be stiffening caps. They lower the ripple voltage of the supply (in this case the supply is the alternator,battery, and large cap). If you wanted to improve SQ the cap is conected to the wrong part of the amplifier. Sure it would improve it slightly where its at but I doubt anyone would notice the difference.

Now if your trying to use a cap as a stiffening cap which means your trying to lower the ripple voltage of the supply then that's where these caps come in. More ripple = more light flickering. There are a few ways to reduce this ripple. A battery with a low ESR, a faster responding alternator, and a low ESR cap.

Pick your poison. The cheapest is the cap (depending on what size and brand you get). The most expensive is the alternator. Exspecially on Honda's since they like to mount them in the back of the motor. Some caps are way to expensive for the benifit they provide JMO. You have to weigh the cost vs benifit and decide which route to take. But like anything in audio there are always those who build stupidly expensive products to get that additional .00001% gain.

 

Well put !! I am a believer in stacking batteries for SPL applications when actually running in the lanes. If you are a true SPL Comp. It is not even a matter of a long time of playing. You should have already figured out your acoustical peak frequency (combination for vehicles natural acoustical peak along with port tuning etc.) You will be playing one frequency for a second (a burp) wait a couple seconds and maybe a second "burp" .. that's it. For that purpose, having as much reserve power (amps, not volts) will help out a lot. In the SQ side, when the voltage rails get saturated the amp begins to clip (square wave.) This can be caused my lack of power on the input stage of the amp, esp at dynamic peaks. The square wave (amplified signal that is taller than the actually +/- rails of the amp) is a distorted signal. This can be a cause of speakers "blowing." The voice coil gets so hot that it mechanically shuts down or breaks. It also can cause other problems as well. Keeping reserve power that can charge and discharge at a fast rate to help supply in input stage of the power supply can help dramatically.
just my 2 cents
correct me if I am wrong, I might be. (not being cocky)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleeperx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It is not even a matter of a long time of playing. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Your definition of a long time I'm sure is far different then what I consider a long time. 1/frequency is the period of a signal. 1/50hz=.02 or 20ms in the electrical world this is FOREVER!!!!!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleeperx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For that purpose, having as much reserve power (amps, not volts) will help out a lot.(not being cocky)</TD></TR></TABLE> 99% of amplifiers are voltage amplifiers not current amplifiers. Amps are broken into two stages. A switching power supply, that uses current to bump the supply voltage up. This is usually done at at least twice the highest audio frequency so approx 44kHz. The voltage is raised to approx 30V regardless of the input voltage this is the rail voltage. There is obviously a range in which it's able to maintain this voltage and some amps are less regulated then others. But you see having a low ripple voltage at the amplifier input does not have a huge impact on the amplifier. The amplifier was designed to operate with varying voltages on its input. What's important is the output of this supply. If this varies with the ripple voltage then thats DISTORTION.

An amps gain is = output voltage/(low level input voltage) . blaa blaa blaa I could go on and on and put everyone to sleep. ha I'll stop now

 

well doesn't it depend on whether the amp has a regulated or unregulated power supply. With an unregulated power supply the forever changing voltage will determine the forever changing power output. And yes you are correct about playing time. I understand what you are saying about being voltage amplifiers, but current is what drives them. In a car term, voltage = HP and amps = torque. A larger amp doesn't draw more volts than a smaller one, it draws more current or amps, which is why we use larger power wire with larger or multiple amps. I am sure that you already understand all of this obviously, I just want to make sure that I am understand what exactly you were saying.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleeperx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well doesn't it depend on whether the amp has a regulated or unregulated power supply. </TD></TR></TABLE>
All supplies are regulated even unregulated supplies are regulated. The difference is how tightly they are regulated. An "unregulated" supply is a loosly regulated supply. It's another example of term being incorrectly used in car audio.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleeperx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I understand what you are saying about being voltage amplifiers, but current is what drives them. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Car audio amps are voltage amplifiers. You get current gain because you boosted the voltage. output voltage/speaker impedence =output current output current/(low level input current)=current gain.

There is a reason why rail voltages max out at approx 30V. This is because anything over 33V is considered a high voltage device and selling it becomes a little trickier. It also makes the device dangerous and could kill someone. This is one of the reasons car audio speakers are usually a lower impedence. By reducing the impedence of the speaker you can get more power from the same supply.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleeperx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A larger amp doesn't draw more volts than a smaller one, it draws more current or amps, which is why we use larger power wire with larger or multiple amps.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You need to seperate the supply stage vs the audio stage. The power supply inside the amplifier does not amplifiy any audio. It just boost the working voltage to a higher level. This supply will pull as much current as it needs to maintain 30V on the rail. Now the audio stage uses this 30V supply to amplify the audio. it takes a sine wave from your low level source which is about 1v peak to peak. Now instead of only have 1v peak to peak swing the amplifier portion has a 30v peak to peak max swing. This section matches the low level side but has a larger supply voltage to work with.

Not all amp run at 30v lower wattage amps run at approx 20 or so volts. As you move up in wattage the supply voltage goes up. Some manufacturers make really strong supplies this is so they can drive really low impedence loads. This does not make them current amplifiers. These are still voltage amplifiers. The output voltage will still be 30V it will just require a much much lower load before that supply can no longer regulate the rail voltage to 30v, so much so that this is usually the number one reason amps die. The power supply transistors die. Most repairs that cost $150 consist of replacing 4 transistors that cost $1.50 each.