Ever since I began my interest in automotive A/V, I have always known capacitors to be vital in a large audio system. Granted they cannot replace the need for a good battery and alternator, but I am hearing more and more (From what seems to be generally people of about 18 and younger.), that capacitors are "pointless and a waste of money". Or "they are just one more thing for the alternator to charge".

Has some new advancement or theory in car audio become present and I missed the memo? Just from what I know and common sense, a capacitor still seems like a good choice when beefing up your power supply. It still is not a replacement for a stronger electrical system, but I don't see them as "useless".

Thoughts?

 

A cap still has a part to play in car audio, anybody that thinks they are pointless does not know what he/see is talking about.
The debate rages on. 94

 

I was actually starting to worry that I somehow missed the memo from all the times I heard this lately.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by omega02379 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ever since I began my interest in automotive A/V, I have always known capacitors to be vital in a large audio system. Granted they cannot replace the need for a good battery and alternator, but I am hearing more and more (From what seems to be generally people of about 18 and younger.), that capacitors are "pointless and a waste of money". Or "they are just one more thing for the alternator to charge".

Has some new advancement or theory in car audio become present and I missed the memo? Just from what I know and common sense, a capacitor still seems like a good choice when beefing up your power supply. It still is not a replacement for a stronger electrical system, but I don't see them as "useless".

Thoughts?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Considering the cost of most caps on the market, spending the money on a higher amp alternator would yield more advantages and purpose. A capacitor only helps maintain voltage for a short, short period of time. It does not reduce the overall strain on the electrical system from adding a high watt audio system to a car.

Personally as an installer, I wont say they are useless, but I dont find them being vital to a large audio system. Having the right amount of current to supply to your system is what I consider vital.

 

cost vs benefit can be argued but that is where it ends. the nice thing is you can usually pick a decent one up for cheap because you get uninformed people convincing others that they are paper weights.

 

Nice info in here They work great if your not using it as a band aid in a poor system design or with a faulty charging system. The only set back is using them with a dei 520t back up battery. But thats why you should have a hood pin. But thats a diffrent story.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wrx-killer-Sti-eater &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice info in here They work great if your not using it as a band aid in a poor system design or with a faulty charging system. The only set back is using them with a dei 520t back up battery. But thats why you should have a hood pin. But thats a diffrent story.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats the thing...Salespeople tend to offer them as band aids to solve the infamous dimming headlights issue or they misinform them by saying it'll save their alternator. Sure, it may cure the dimming headlights in some vehicles, but they're only buying time.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cost vs benefit can be argued but that is where it ends. the nice thing is you can usually pick a decent one up for cheap because you get uninformed people convincing others that they are paper weights. </TD></TR></TABLE>

As long as you dont pick one up at a best buy or circuit city, they're not too painful on the wallet. Independant stereo retailers or online shops are the best place to pick one up. With a properly configured system, a cap can really help maintain current flow and keep it sounding clean.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnjoyTheRideDC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As long as you dont pick one up at a best buy or circuit city, they're not too painful on the wallet. Independant stereo retailers or online shops are the best place to pick one up. With a properly configured system, a cap can really help maintain current flow and keep it sounding clean.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We sell caps for like $140 and we get them for like $50ish employee cost. It's awesome.

 

-Newer cars have better charging systems and therefore the lights don't dim as easily so people assume all is well.

-For the person who listens to extremely bass heavy music 1 farad might not be enough. It does not have time to recharge and benefit the system well enough. So it's not just how many watts you have, but how often(during seconds even) you max out the use of them. Sounds right anyway.

-Does anyone know if the Tsunami 20/30/40+ farad capacitors are any good? They're only about $200.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nineohtoo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

We sell caps for like $140 and we get them for like $50ish employee cost. It's awesome.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ebay has great prices on caps also. Caps help to a point and might help the life of your alternator just for the fact they keep some of the spike surges out of it but nothing can compare to a high amp output alternator.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nineohtoo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

We sell caps for like $140 and we get them for like $50ish employee cost. It's awesome.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I was speaking from a retail standpoint since I no longer work for best buy anymore. You can go on ebay and get a Fosgate cap for around that price...same packaging and everything.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by schmiddr2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-Newer cars have better charging systems and therefore the lights don't dim as easily so people assume all is well.

-For the person who listens to extremely bass heavy music 1 farad might not be enough. It does not have time to recharge and benefit the system well enough. So it's not just how many watts you have, but how often(during seconds even) you max out the use of them. Sounds right anyway.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Charging systems in newer cars are very much the same as they've been in older cars. The idea that lights not dimming as easily has a lot to do with the fact that a newer car's charging system has a lot less wear and tear on it.

And wattage has everything to do with the type of capacitor you choose. The capacitor recharges extremely quick so chances of it being drained are unlikely... unless you have a capacitor not suitable for the load. If you put a 1 farad cap on a 1500 watt system, you're cap wont be as effective. Thats why you have to choose your cap based on the size of your system... not the type of music you listen to.

 

Well then Mr. Best Buy... J/K Maybe you can clear this up for me. I know you can never have too much reserve but I've been told that you need at the minimum 1/10'th farad per 100 watts. Or say one farad per thousand watts. You get the picture.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnjoyTheRideDC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Charging systems in newer cars are very much the same as they've been in older cars. The idea that lights not dimming as easily has a lot to do with the fact that a newer car's charging system has a lot less wear and tear on it.

And wattage has everything to do with the type of capacitor you choose. The capacitor recharges extremely quick so chances of it being drained are unlikely... unless you have a capacitor not suitable for the load. If you put a 1 farad cap on a 1500 watt system, you're cap wont be as effective. Thats why you have to choose your cap based on the size of your system... not the type of music you listen to.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't believe they are quite the same. Most newer cars have larger amperage alternators, manly because of all the power features they need it. Also, the battery construction should be a little bit better. And like you said the wiring and connectors have not degraded as much as older cars.

So, whether you use the capacitor to run a 1500 watt system in a competition or a daily user with 1500 watts it requires the same capacitor size? What I'm saying is, why would you only consider watts when you need to consider alternator amperage and extremes of use.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HYREV2NR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well then Mr. Best Buy... J/K Maybe you can clear this up for me. I know you can never have too much reserve but I've been told that you need at the minimum 1/10'th farad per 100 watts. Or say one farad per thousand watts. You get the picture. </TD></TR></TABLE>

From what I know, a 1 farad cap handles up to 800 watts. if you use 1 farad to a 1000 watt system, it'll still "work", but not as effictively.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by schmiddr2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't believe they are quite the same. Most newer cars have larger amperage alternators, manly because of all the power features they need it. Also, the battery construction should be a little bit better. And like you said the wiring and connectors have not degraded as much as older cars.

So, whether you use the capacitor to run a 1500 watt system in a competition or a daily user with 1500 watts it requires the same capacitor size? What I'm saying is, why would you only consider watts when you need to consider alternator amperage and extremes of use.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Think about it, a newer car may have a higher output alternator but the increase in amperage is a result of more power features. Its not like that added amperage is being unused. Battery construction is just about the same as it ever has been. Besides, the battery is only used when starting the car and when using power features with the engine off.

The capacitor is going to act the same for either user because its purpose is to maintain voltage for short periods of time, such as when the amp demands a huge draw of power to supply to the sub. The more times it has to be used or the more extreme the condition, the sooner it will wear out, just like anything else that has an expected term of life.

 

* bites tongue eats popcorn*

 

But the point were are trying to make here, is that they are NOT completely pointless as many of these misinformed teens seem to think.

I agree that the overall charging system on the car needs to be looked at when installing anything. But they are not pointless.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by omega02379 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But the point were are trying to make here, is that they are NOT completely pointless as many of these misinformed teens seem to think. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not pointless at all. They work well when used correctly. I'm biting my tongue because I don't feel like correcting every small detail that isn't accurate. It's a never ending task.

Eating popcorn cause I'm waiting for newb to come in an say otherwise. Enjoy guys, I dont have as much time anymore to post regularily to this forum.

 

omega, you nailed it from the start. good man.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HYREV2NR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well then Mr. Best Buy... J/K Maybe you can clear this up for me. I know you can never have too much reserve but I've been told that you need at the minimum 1/10'th farad per 100 watts. Or say one farad per thousand watts. You get the picture. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i always told ppl to get 1farad for every 500w rms. i run a 2farad capacitor on my 800w rms mtx setup. one thing i like about having the cap is if im going to play a song or so without starting the car, i can play it for 2 songs or so turned completely up without draining my battery.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by omega02379 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But the point were are trying to make here, is that they are NOT completely pointless as many of these misinformed teens seem to think.

I agree that the overall charging system on the car needs to be looked at when installing anything. But they are not pointless.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know the thread went off on a tangent, but i think the first 4 or 5 responses to the thread justified that the capacitor is not pointless to use. The posts that follow are helping others understand how the cap can be beneficial to both their car and their system,.

 

If caps aren't pointless then why do the people that compete in db drags not use them?

I have said it before and I will say it again. If you want to add something to your system dont waste money on a cap. Get a second battery FIRST. A cap. is only a battery that is worthless. It cant store a lot of engry. It takes engry for the cap. to even have engry to begin with. A second battery already has engry and lots of it stored. It only takes engry to maintain it. Every alt. that comes factory with any car can keep up charging two batteries.

If you doubt my thinking go to a db drag and talk to the guys that compete. I have had a one on one talk with the builders of the Pioneer F250 which is the loudest car in the world. They are running 120 batteries, and ZERO caps. And no they factory alt. cant charge all of them but when their 32 different amps power there 8 subs for a min they only lose one volt of charge on there batteries. And they are useing 64,000 watts of power!!!

Now if a system that has that much power does all of that without a cap. What is a cap. going to do for your 150watt system?

-Mark-


Modified by Poppins324 at 7:22 PM 7/13/2008

 

i am not sure i would trust someone's opinion that cant spell energy. i think you misspelled it 5 times

 

your math doesnt seem to good?

"turbo=happiness
turbo+vtec=sex
turbo+vtec+nitrous=3some"

I cant spell you cant do math that really isnt the point.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Poppins324 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If caps aren't pointless then why do the people that compete in db drags not use them?

I have said it before and I will say it again. If you want to add something to your system dont waste money on a cap. Get a second battery FIRST. A cap. is only a battery that is worthless. It cant store a lot of engry. It takes engry for the cap. to even have engry to begin with. A second battery already has engry and lots of it stored. It only takes engry to maintain it. Every alt. that comes factory with any car can keep up charging two batteries.

If you doubt my thinking go to a db drag and talk to the guys that compete. I have had a one on one talk with the builders of the Pioneer F250 which is the loudest car in the world. They are running 120 batteries, and ZERO caps. And no they factory alt. cant charge all of them but when their 32 different amps power there 8 subs for a min they only lose one volt of charge on there batteries. And they are useing 64,000 watts of power!!!

Now if a system that has that much power does all of that without a cap. What is a cap. going to do for your 150watt system?

-Mark-


Modified by Poppins324 at 7:22 PM 7/13/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>


In response, a capacitor wont do much for anyone in a DB drag. But how many everyday people have competition grade systems in their vehicles? How many people would drive their DB Drag Competition vehicle daily? Lastly, how many competitors would be ignorant enough to drive, let alone sit inside, their db drag vehicle with their system pumping?

A capacitor is designed to help maintain voltage in the charging system with the addition to a high powered amp. They have a purpose and they're directed to a specific crowd of people. Just like a db drag competitor wont have capacitors laced throughout their system, an average audiophile wont have multiple batteries in their trunk to accomodate the additional current draw from the amp.

I know there are db drag competitors in the entry levels that run their systems on standard alternators, one battery, no capacitor, and place high in their respected classes. I also have witnessed some of those same type embarassing themselves due to technical difficulties. So its possible for someone to run a high powered system on standard electrical systems. Everyone has options when choosing how they want to setup their car audio system. Some people cut corners, some people do it right, and some dont know what they're doing and end up installing components that they dont necessarily need but it "looks cool" to them. It all comes down to how much that person knows about what he's getting into.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Poppins324 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your math doesnt seem to good?

"turbo=happiness
turbo+vtec=sex
turbo+vtec+nitrous=3some"

I cant spell you cant do math that really isnt the point.</TD></TR></TABLE>

what are you talking about? lol.