DDTECH

hmm

Nikos

Don't you agree that if this thing moves the powerband there might be some room for another 10whp on top of whatever everyone is making with whatever cams they are running? More air means more fuel needed to burn means a bigger cam could maybe deliver more power? If you look at BMW style type of manifolds they seems to have runners like this inside the plenum.

Nikos

Cam lift is limited to cores, not design. The reason why most bseries cams are less than 0.500 inch lift is because there is not enough beef. So unlocking the cam potential would mean new cores with unlimited lift and duration capability along with lobe seperation to go anywhere you want it to go.

like this if you understand what I mean

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-i...10127-1005.jpg

this way we can try different designs until we get the sweet spot. I am looking forward to see if this manifold will show high RPM potential

before someone asks how much would a high quality steel bseries cam would cost, that is not the point here, just making more power is the goal at any cost.

DDTECH

I see the Audi, porsche , bmw manifolds everyday, i understand what you're saying.

There's limiting factors though, on the b/h series heads that limit the amount of lift that can actual be ran, safely.

I'd venture to agree with you, but i also think that duration will play a big role as well, If it does move the powerband to the right more, then ya, its very possible, i think those runners are too long though personally..we'll see how the test come out.

DDTECH

Shh, stop giving away everything lol.

Not just core. Seat pressure, cam cap clearance, and also a few other things limit the h/b series heads. This is why k series heads can run taller cams.. because of the higher seat pressures they have on springs.


On b / h series duration to me, is more important, then peak lift, do NOT turn the words around because lift is very very important, but when you're limited, you have to find what works.

Nikos

Well, kseries cams are not really that much taller, it's the roller ratio that is greater, thus resulting to a highler/taller valve lift

if your cam lift is 0.320 for example, on a bseries assuming roller ration is 1.55 then you have 0.496 inches valve lift

if you use the same cam on kseries (assuming valve motion was the same which is not)

then with kseries roller ratio of 1.73 you have 0.5536 inches valve lift.

So the same cam on kseries would be creating extra 0.053 inches in valve lift


According to everything I learn from the cam manufacturing and design field, duration is not really up for anyone to decide what is best. Duration is governed by the head.

So in an ideal world, duration needs to be a certain number for valve motion to remain stable under the valve lift you want to run.

To explain and try to make it clear... you have to go backwards in cam design and engine design.

You decide what lift you want to run and the cam designer makes that valve lift work for a certain duration that will compliment valve motion.

What we do when we tune engines with manifolds and cams, is go backwards because we are stuck with OEM bores and stroke and engines and by upgrading the cams we are essentially trying to redesign a part of the engine that was meant to work with the rest of the parts.

Duration for a high flowing head or manifold or anything that will make flow better will be different but I do understand this is a hard concept to grasp.

So when you someone says, duration is more important than lift, its probably not the best way to say it. Duration with lift and springs, all these 3 things make valve motion design posible.

The cam just turns, it does not make any power. The power is made because just like a computer program, it gives commands to the valves to open and close faster and faster and faster into cycles until redline. For the first and second and 3rd derivative to make sense, you have to have duration that makes sense for the head that is being used.

Having said all this, yes it is possible to design a cam with more duration than before by keeping the lift the same, but its almost like having a string and trying to shape it in a way for it to fit under a certain shape or curve.

So in my opinion, duration and valve lift are hard for the enthusiast to determine as what is what they need because max lift does not happen where you think it is happening.

When faced with a cam design problem , you can only fit so much lift for a given duration because of the flow limits of a head. Until you test its impossible to predict what it will do even if the lift or duration is not what you are used to. For almost 10 years, 10 brands with kseries stuck around 0.523 lift for stock block 2 liter engines. Because that is what the ips k2 was and most brands till today have traces of that valve motion design if you look under a microscope so to speak.

So when we redesigned the street cam by taking the 0.523 valve lift to 0.540 valve lift, many people even today say.. that is too big for a street engine because they do not understand that individually valve lift, duration or springs cannot really do much. Its the whole system that works. It took me a solid 6 months for me to understand really what I am trying to say here.

Back to bseries manifold topic

DDTECH

lol.. way to go nikos, you've now not only taken a hard left turn but you just made a bunch of heads explode lol.


I agree, i have my views on things, but i agree with majority of what you've said, i can't really go that in depth like you have, because i'm at work, but you get the jist of things.

d15Beta

good cam stuff .. me likey

has anyone found out yet the "limit" of lift ,with regards to rocker pad wear and such for Bseries

Nikos or DDtech? surely there would be a lift limit where it starts to cause more wear than good..

isnt this also another reason Ks can run bigger aft market cams due to being rollerboys


then we go back to skunk manifold topic LOL!

DDTECH

The reason alot of companies, including my own recommend spring type LMA setup is because of the hydro lma's not being able to keep up, and then causes lma binding which will cause rocker wear issues.. off the top of my head i think the binding limit of the spring type lma is like .600 something, but that doesn't mean the b series head can run that high of a lift.

The actual Limit of the b series/H series will vary, I've made some pretty tall cams, for both street and race setups but its solo dependent on the setup. I like to profile the lift around 10-15% taller then what the head can actual flow, this will leave alittle room to grow, its something I do, i'm sure others pratice differently.

I believe there's a limit. Like i've stated, peak lift is more of a bad thing, then a good thing in terms of street / every day use. Of course lift is "effective" duration. But me personally I have my views on things, they will differ from others. I'm sure nikos will write a book and go in depth lmao.

Just to put my views into perspective, I'd rather run a .490 lift cam with 282 duration rather then a .505 @ 273 duration(b series)

Nikos

yes in theory there is a limit but in reality you can always improve.

A typical NASCAR team back in the golden days of nascar around the year 2000, would go through 200 different sets of cams per year.

50 sets were unique designs and the other 150 where using these unique designs with different centerlines on average.

The thing to note here is that max lift is only at one point where the roller ratio makes sense. To understand, you need to read this Jim Miller paper that explains it as best as possible http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1...2010_20-30.pdf

So roller or rocker cams are a challenge because valve motion and cam motion only have one thing in common.. at max lift, you can calculate the max distance due to the roller ratio.. Everything is between is hard to figure out without a PHD in math or a computer program.

EVO X for example, does not have the challenge because its direct acting cam so the cam moves and the valve moves with no different geometry so if you want to copy a EVO X cam, you put it in the cam doctor and your valve motion is your cam motion minus your valve lash. With bseries or kseries, by looking at the cams on the cam doctor, you are only looking at commands. If you really want to see behavior, you have to look at the valves and how they move and at what rate because that is what makes the power.

So 2 sets of cams with identical specs can be apart 20whp easy. because one could be a hack job and the other could be based on ridiculous precision. THe customer will never be able to tell the difference no matter how good or bad the cam looks. Its the engine that makes this decision when you run it.

Sorry to take the thread off course, read that article to understand better.

The K And B series are both finger follower. You can have end pivot, center pivot, roller, and sliding pad finger followers. Anything with a non-constant ratio is finger follower. Only if the ratio is constant, like a V8, then its called a rocker arm valve train. People on the Internet call finger followers rocker arms so it can get confusing.

98vtec

Don't start.

d15Beta

im guilty on calling them rocker arms..

even on my Type1 vw pushrod engine i call em rockers (i think here it is correct)

but then again if i mention finger followers locals to me.. theyd prolly be confused to wat the heck that was..

back on topic

DazeMS

Blah blah.. where is the version of this.thread that involves an intake manifold test on the dyno?

Poppin

X2

90efhatch

In to see the numbers of the manifold. I hope to see them before I tune my car, in case I need to get one of these first.

just_dung

iTrader: (2)

In for NA results !

gmsii

this thread has turned into the retarded manifold and cam e-engineers conference....a word of caution to all readers....do not confuse much of this rubbish for actual 'knowledge'...ridiculous

eDm cRxXx

Nikos: Thanks for en informative posts.

But why would you wait to see how this manifold does before you design a new big cam for the B-series?

The skunk2 ultra race manifold have already been more or less proven on big (high output) dragrace engine, and also there is Kinsler and other ITBs.

I have great faith in this Ultra Street manifold, but I think it is more for street, or 1.6-2.0 roadrace (rallycross ), where a billet cam will most likely not be used. Or?

mycho

Guys,

Here is an answer from Skunk2. Coming from them, it is to be taken with a grain of salt ...
I would have preferred to see some comparison before buying, But I think I'll go ahead and order one.

Nikos

STFU , one post wonder lol A caution to all readers?


because having everyone buy a ported head to increase flow is not realistic and the only way to see measurable, justifiable gains is a better manifold. Itbs is not really an option since I have tried them and they are a pain for street driving, no question about it.

So before I think about investing 30 thousand dollars in r and d in a new camshaft core that will be able to carry more lift , I need to be realistic. I need a good manifold and this could be it. I am not interested in making my own manifold.

With the help of bseries experts and guys online, it will take some time sure, but if we see gains in flow vs stock manifolds, it might be worth to try a few prototypes. The profit margin is very small with these things and people do not understand this has nothing to do with money. Its about trying or wanting to push bseries to the next level and without cams it is never going to happen.

There is no market for a new generation of cams if we cannot get more flow because people are not going to upgrade cams for only 3-5 whp gains if that. That is my opinion anyway.

Most people do not undertand that if one manifold test does not show gains, it does not 100% mean that the manifold is not working. It could be the cams or the header or the tuning or something else. One thread with one result is not the end of everything else. It needs to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt so I am guessing they already know this is a good performer or else they would not make it.

You see, people want to believe companies are throwiing parts in the market and seeing what people think about them, but serious manufacturers know the results before writing a big check to their foundry to introduce a new product.

So I am anxious to see results and if they are not what people expect to see, I will wait for more results.. Eventually after 5 -10 dynos, it will be clear if this works or not.

01DC4

iTrader: (3)

I hope this thread gets cleaned up and back on topic

98vtec

I've already deleted posts once. Guys lets please try and stay on topic. Veering off to camshafts isnt what this thread is about.

Its about served all its going to serve anyway until people start posting their charts with the new manifold, in which case would deserve its own thread.

FlewByU352

Hurry up with those tests!

01DC4

iTrader: (3)

Testing on the Pro Series and The PX is complete, The Ultra Street is scheduled for early next week.

MasterFunk

Can't wait