oldskoolchris

i'm sure some of you can feel my pain...

if honing is impossible because nobody in the universe can to it properly, is the only option
apart from putting new rings in and 'hoping for the best without honing' is to...

seems Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the top just to fit new rings, but spend s***
loads of cash buying new sleeves, re-sleeving, boring, honing, new pistons, rods, rings etc?

all i wanna do is get it running nice. be cheaper and easier to buy a new car !!

Aradin

I'm just gonna assume you're talking about an H series here.

Honing FRM is not impossible. The convenience of it depends on your location. If you can find a machine shop that is familiar with Porsches they should be able to help you.

The FRM sleeves really don't need to be honed unless they have deep gouges or scratches that run the length of the bore. It is a very hard material that does not deform easily. They do not need a normal crosshatch to seat rings correctly. So it is not "hoping for the best" as long as the cylinders pass a visual inspection. In the FSM it says all of this and standard procedure is to re-ring it and send it.

That is of course if you're just trying to do a stock rebuild. If you want aftermarket stuff there are pistons available, both cast and forged, that will work with the factory FRM sleeve material.

the171

yeah, it seems like an frm block that hasnt been damaged doesnt need to be honed. The pistons and rings will wear out long before the cylinders. Although it does present a challenge for a custom pistons like mahle then, you need a hone to get the proper clearance spec. With the right type of honing stone any machine shop should be able to do it. But because its uncommon most people dont want to risk their build, even though it probably works, but then, it might not. This is why nice H builds are not common even though its a great engine.

oldskoolchris

yep H series. plan on refurbishing it rather than improving hp so will be staying fairly close to factory

i read the part about some vertical scratches being acceptable to mean some vertical scratches are acceptable and nothing else (ie, it's just a note at the end purely about the cylinders and nothing to do with honing)

328FTW

Like it says, use your fingernail. It's standard machining practice to use a fingernail to catch a marking. You're basically trying to ascertain the difference between a visual mark or a physically significant scoring of the wall.

H22a still come through pick a part and zebra parts here sometimes. You can get a shortblock for $90 if yours is flogged if you're willing to spend a day and some tools/blood on pulling one out. My crappy prelude is a yard pulled shortblock with a big turbo strapped to it. No scare.

I've also honed FRM by hand before, it can work. Not ideal but also neither were the bits of aluminium from the melted piston because I uploaded the wrong tune. Live and learn.

oldskoolchris

the block i have is in good condition, but the cylinder walls have no crosshatching on them. there are some very light vertical scratches, but other than that they are all very very smooth

i wanted to keep it NA, but if i end up having to sleeve because of the honing problem it i might wack a big F off turbo on it just to get my revenge !!

Aradin

It's normal to not see a crosshatch on the FRM sleeves. They don't really come out looking like a standard iron sleeve even if you do hone them. They just have a flat gray finish.

If you have no significant scratches that catch your fingernail you should be good with just a re-ring, no need to hone.

oldskoolchris

after how many kms would i expect to see any problems if there were any if i re-ringed it without honing?

would i have to wear them in any differently like driving at 5km an hour for 10,000km, praying, putting $5 back under my pillow at night for the tooth fairy etc?

Aradin

I doubt you would have issues as long as it's put together correctly and it's in good shape to begin with. I don't know exactly what you're working with so I can't really say. If you post pictures of the cylinders and pistons, etc that may help.

I have rebuilt a few H series with 150-200k+ miles with just a re-ring and they were fine. I always broke them in like I would break in any fresh engine. Vary the RPM, no constant speed highway cruising, change the oil frequently, etc etc. They're all still going strong today as far as I know.

JRCivic1

FRM sleeves from the factory appear very smooth and show almost no cross-hatching. If the bores are round, are still standard sized, and appear smooth... I say drop in a set of Mahle Gold series pistons with fresh rings and run it.

oldskoolchris

big thanks for your replies guys, it really is VERY much appreciated

best i can do with the pictures. H22a from a Euro R. was running perfectly well and compression results were good. unfortunately though the kms are unknown...

Aradin

From what I can see it looks like it's in great shape. That stuff looks almost new besides the carbon build up. If you're doing a stock rebuild just clean everything up, re-ring it and send it. You should be good.

If you plan to run Mahle's I would at least have a machine shop check the piston-to-wall clearance.

oldskoolchris

ok cool that's good to know

once again thanks very much for your help

scottcraft

Do you think the Mahle Gold series would have decent longevity at higher than stock compression ratios?

JRCivic1

Of course. I have had them in my engine for 14 years now... the first six were "daily driven" years, so there are PLENTY of miles on her. Still purrs like a kitten.

scottcraft

That is very useful information, thank you.

sublimeluder

Congrats from what I've read your the only one lol. It seems most people get 30-60k before it trashes there cylinder walls.

sublimeluder

I've rebuilt my h22 twice. The first time I just did a Oem rebuild and it used 1/2qt between changes. The second time I did a mild build with type s pistons and it uses 1/8qt between changes. Both times I used scotch pad and 800 grit sand paper. I scrubbed it down with the pad then I kinda made light crosshatch with sand paper. You can also use a glaze breaker (hand hone) with fine grit stones 600 grit if u can find them. Thats what most machine shops do, just use engine oil aND a few passes.

oldskoolchris

interesting. cheers for your reply and sharing your knowledge/experience. sounds a bit caveman style lol but totally understandable considering the circumstances

will give the thought of nervously sandpapering my cylinder walls some serious thought

ShinsenTuner

iTrader: (1)

I have no proof behind this other than reading an article somewhere once, but apparently Porsche's of some model and year used FRM lined cylinders as well and are usually the ones who can achieve a fresh hone for you, if needed. General consensus sounds like if you can't catch your finger nail on the cylinder wall scratches it means you are good to just drop in new pistons and rings.

civichxtreme2

Bmw v8's from the 90s and early 2000's were FRM too, Ive rebuilt half a dozen 4.4L's with no honing and never once had an issue, and these engines are smooth as glass while pushing 300hp stock, with several of the builds ending up much higher.

oldskoolchris

mean. definitely growing in confidence about re-ringing without honing. cheers for replying

civichxtreme2

You should be fine, I never could figure out why but the FRM cylinders got a not so great rap in the Honda world (H22), but the Germans used them in a ton of engines and they generally have little issue with it. GO FOR IT!

SM3@R..

I picked up my H22A4 with all accessories and transmissions from a side swiped 97 prelude at the junkyard. I didn't notice the lack of compression until after completing the swap ( 100% leakdown and 0 compression ). I took off the head and valves weren't fully closing due to carbon buildup. The block sleeve look good, other than a slight lip towards the top of the cylinder walls. I got another H22A4 block and head from a friend and took it straight to the machine shop to have it rebuilt. The new to me block also has a slight lip same location so decided to have it bored over but the machine shop had its reservations. Mentioned the sleeves could tilt during the process and skew the bore and suggested adding a block guard before starting the process. I have now sourced another machine shop that is experienced with FRM Hondas and said you cannot bore the sleeves and must be replaced by iron sleeves. After reviewing this thread, I am just wondering if anyone has come across this same issue and what was the resolution and outcome.

JRCivic1

If you want to use any piston brands BESIDES the OE Factory Base/Type S or Mahle Gold series pistons, then you MUST re-sleeve the block. You CAN bore the FRM sleeves but it requires special stones and the honing speed is much faster than what is required to hone steel sleeves.