killerpenguin21

ok so i have a huge dilemma at this point.

im currently running a 200whp (well 196whp) ls/vtec, with itb's,decent header, factory gsr trans blah blah. and it really disapointed me on the track this summer (15's all day with 2.5 60's). it also loses oil, and i have really struggled to find the leak (may be internal...very litle smoke tho) so im trying to decide my route for the winter.

option a
---------
i picked up a sleeved block for dirt cheap, so i was planning on doing a 2L build, with mild headwork and shooting for about 230whp, and picking up slicks.

option b
---------
keep on the 200whp motor, get a close ratio gearset and maybe a 4.7 FD, 3 inch exhaust, possibly mildly port the head and go back and degree the cams, and maybe make 10whp more, but have the gearing advantage i guess?

what would you do? i am having the worst time trying to decide

00Red_SiR

Your times are nothing more than an indication of traction and driver experience, it's mph that tells you/us how strong your car is. Practice would get you into the 14's and better 60' times. Slicks would also typically get you better 60' times and possibly 1/4 mile times if they're sized correctly. Transmission gearing would get you down the track quicker, again showing better times but your mph at the end should not change much.

My question to you would be, what's more important to you:

Better 1/4 mile times or a faster more powerful car?

A B20 is going to give you a fair amount more power than your current LS/VTEC if done right so that's an easy answer if that's what you want. If it's better times you want, I'd suggest more practice and then you can consider some of the changes you mentioned. If it's a faster/more powerful car all the way around that you want and you have the money, the B20 is the way to go.

American.Graffiti

iTrader: (7)

I concur with 00Red_SiR's question regarding what is more important? Better 1/4 times or a more powerful car? I guess your decision regarding your build should entail what is your purpose or motivation behind your car? I personally followed your build thread and I must say that practically every part of your install I agreed with, the only exception being your transmission. I would have kept the LSD but I dont know what personal matters forced you to sell it. I still figured that you should have been able to get more power out of your motor with all them mods. But if you do decide to go with the sleeved block go 2.1L, I know my opinion is irrational and irrelevant.

killerpenguin21

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your times are nothing more than an indication of traction and driver experience, it's mph that tells you/us how strong your car is. </TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah i know part of it was inexperience/traction, but everything seemed that even if i had had the traction, i wasnt even gonna see low 14's, and i had expected the motor to be caable f mid 13's. i dont have the slips in front of me but to the best of my memory i was trapping in the 96-98 range. the sad part being the 196 was on a dynapack too..so figure 190whp max truly, after all the research and parts i put together

i dont want a car that is stup specifically for the 1/4, the car is great on the street, although lacking a little, and i wish it had a little more in it, but im definetly happy with the direction i went as far as the itb's and streetable power.

overall im after a car that is great on the street, but can still rip on the track, both road and 1/4.


Modified by killerpenguin21 at 12:15 PM 9/13/2008

American.Graffiti

iTrader: (7)

If that be the case then just sell the sleeved block and build you a tranny.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

I have the same problem, just I'm a little further down the curve. My times are mid 14s and 99 to 101 mph traps.

Are you spinning in 1st and 2nd or launching at a really low rpm? Your traps indicate good power. You may just be traction limited.

Before you abandon ship ie change your set-up, maybe you should try drag radials.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Honesty, I've seen guys with a lot less motor run some really good times. It does take a little practice to get good. We should look for each other at Honda Day, Atco.

MikeySpec

Torque. Go with the 2L

killerpenguin21

traction was obviosuly an issue lol. was launching at about 4k.

you can hear it spin a little when i hit third gear (right lane obviously) this was a 15.2 run with a 2.3 60 and like .6 r/t
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEEPINpMmHs

i just dont see this car going a full second faster with just better traction though.

killerpenguin21

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honesty, I've seen guys with a lot less motor run some really good times. It does take a little practice to get good. We should look for each other at Honda Day, Atco.</TD></TR></TABLE>

wont be at atco...im up in RI at school now. although i found out the end of the summer i think ive actually met you a few time before.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

I would say stay with your set-up and try to improve your tractio issues 1st. More power will help your trap speeds but only excebrate the traction issues.

Mikey what is your suspension/tire set-up?

American.Graffiti

iTrader: (7)

What kind of Tree is used at that track? what was your RT?

killerpenguin21

so is it worth doing the close ratio with 3.07 first or should i just go with a 4.7 for now?

killerpenguin21

not a pro tree (i cant for the life of me remember what they call the other one)

my best r/t as around .6 worst, i got caught sleeping since i rolled through the beam on the stage and couldnt get the damn thing in revers...hellooo 1.03 r/t lol

American.Graffiti

iTrader: (7)

Well with some better RT's in addition to a decent tranny w/lsd and some drag radials you can buy yourself a second shaved.

killerpenguin21

yeah that still only puts me in low 14's. i guess im still trying to get over my dissapointment in the damn motor lol.

d-rob was running mid 14's on street tires with the same setup/power, and low 13's on slicks.

ShaunRR

Never underestimate the difference gearing can make.

killerpenguin21

yeah i know gearing can make a huge difference. i have a chunk of change set aside that i was just about to order pistons and rods with....thinking ill order a 4.78 final. on the street i fall out of vtec between shifts, but at the track i was shifting high enough and not falling out, so i think i can hold off on the close ratio set for a bit.

hopefully i can sell this black now...i keep buying crap and then deciding not to use it

American.Graffiti

iTrader: (7)

Thats the game in general. But at least you have things to liquidate so you dont have to come out of pocket.

goforbroke

I just watched your other youtube video for ***** and giggles. The 2nd to 3rd gear pull and you fall completely out of your powerband, maybe you were just taking it easy on the shifts. Do a compression test lately?

00Red_SiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by killerpenguin21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah that still only puts me in low 14's. i guess im still trying to get over my dissapointment in the damn motor lol.

d-rob was running mid 14's on street tires with the same setup/power, and low 13's on slicks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What was his mph vs yours?

killerpenguin21

only difference between myine and his motors is he was using pro1 cams. he is also on an s4c trans but that shouldnt make that huge a difference.

his best ever i believe on 23 (not sure) inch slicks was
Best E.T. --- 13.17 @ 104mph
Best MPH --- 105.32mph

^^^thats what im dreaming of.

20 inch slicks
1/4 -- 14.126
1/4 MPH -- 97.66

22's
1/4 -- 14.064
1/4 MPH -- 97.73

street tires
60' --- 2.496
1/4 --- 14.640
1/4 MPH --- 100.05

this is basically an identical motor making more power in the same chassis. if i had a better reaction time i could come very close to matching that street tire time. my best run of the summer was a 15.1 with a 1.0 r/t and a 2.3 60. so figure based on my .4-.6's the rest of the day that was worth a mid 14 run.

i trapped 96-97 all day, which is what i dont get since he magically got a 100 trap on streets

00Red_SiR

I thought you were also running pro 1 cams?

He got higher mph on street tires because they are lighter than slicks which robs less engine power and therefore translates into higher mph. Slicks will give you better times at a slight cost of mph.


Also that 105+ mph that he ran would indicate to me that he's putting down between 210-220 whp from what I've seen.


Modified by 00Red_SiR at 4:44 PM 9/13/2008

killerpenguin21

his 105 was on slicks not streets i believe.

he was running pro2's im running pro1's. and yeah i agree with the 210-220 comment, his 191whp reading came on a seriously low reading dyno (known fact) and mine came on his shops dynapack...so the reason remains that due to something i only made say 190 whp on that dynapack

but yet i have similar trap speeds to his motor...which to me would mean my motor is healthy?

this is such a pain in the ***

killerpenguin21

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by goforbroke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just watched your other youtube video for ***** and giggles. The 2nd to 3rd gear pull and you fall completely out of your powerband, maybe you were just taking it easy on the shifts. Do a compression test lately?</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes i know, my crossover is at about 6700 rpm's, if i shift at 8 like i did in that video i drop too far out of vtec, if i shift like i did at the track at 86-8800, i do not fall out of vtec.