why do some ppl run the individual trottle mani. is there any gains from them compared to the single manis. is it for bling or wat, or does it help on certain setups like a NA build?

 

they are not just for bling, although some people might have them simply for that

they are known for increased throttle response as well as low end tq

not to mention they sound great

 

I think a properly designed intake manifold will yeild better power than a individual throttle setup. There is more cross sectional room, and some more room to play with resonance.

Having said that, i think the majority of manifolds for Honda motors that are on the market, need ALOT of work before they will outperform an ITB setup. But even a worked over manifold USUALLY wont deliver the same amount of TQ in the lower end of the rev spectrum as well as throttle response.

ITB's are easy in the sense that you bolt them on and tune them and usually (dont ask blackR), youll get a significant increase in all area's. With a manifold setup, the runner length, diameter as well as a host of other factors will determine where in the powerband your gain will be made, if any at all.

 

they're harder to tune, more expensive, but most people seem to get more power out of them. the big thing is way quicker throttle response, as lots of manifolds are claimed to be able to make as much HP as ITB's

 

Most people get more power out of them because the chances of coming across a really well worked over manifold, is not as easy as bolting on a set of individual throttles. Also, dont forget, its not all as simple as that big peak number.

Ask b19coupe about his ITB/worked ITR manifold experience.

 

if it were a weekend track car or an all out race car, i'd go through the trouble of ITBs, but on anything else, i'd work the IM route.

 

wow thanks for all the info

 

i dunno if i would say its harder to tune. The process is just alot longer. I may be eating those words soon tho

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think a properly designed intake manifold will yeild better power than a individual throttle setup. There is more cross sectional room, and some more room to play with resonance.

Having said that, i think the majority of manifolds for Honda motors that are on the market, need ALOT of work before they will outperform an ITB setup. But even a worked over manifold USUALLY wont deliver the same amount of TQ in the lower end of the rev spectrum as well as throttle response.

ITB's are easy in the sense that you bolt them on and tune them and usually (dont ask blackR), youll get a significant increase in all area's. With a manifold setup, the runner length, diameter as well as a host of other factors will determine where in the powerband your gain will be made, if any at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sounds a lot like Brad@RLZs wording about ITBs, that manifold he just made john should outperform ITBs for the above reasons....

ITBs do sound disgusting.....and i mean that in a good way

 

ITB is better than a manifold, i think so. but i've seen that if you put a ITB, your idle will be rough and you will need to tune and to do it is no easy..

 

if you have enough money to spend on ITB's (the average cost ive basically seen is around $1500) i think you would have and extra $300-$500 to get a decent tune. a tune is everything to a modified car. all the money you spend on parts means absolutly NOTHING unless you get the car tuned.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Walterronny &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ITB is better than a manifold, i think so. but i've seen that if you put a ITB, your idle will be rough and you will need to tune and to do it is no easy..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Better in what regards? Throttle response and midrange, yes.

A plenum offers the ability to tune harmonic resonance to a higher rpm than with ITB's. You can achieve good topend gains with ITB's, don't get me wrong, but a properly built IM will produce more peak HP, and allow it to carry into the high RPM's.

By the way, TWM sucks. If you are even considering ITB's, look at Jenvey's or nothing at all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

By the way, TWM sucks. If you are even considering ITB's, look at Jenvey's or nothing at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yea no kidding. I been reading some bad things about them lately. Those jenvey's are nice. I may considering getting those and selling my DIY's for when i build the motor.

 

Generally most of the folks only know about ITB's based on what is available to our Honda engines. Midrange power is just one piece of the puzzle, mainly because roadracing engines demand midrange and almost all the ITB's out there on the market are tuned for midrange.. ie: TODA unit, OER, etc..

ITB's are simply another way to get air into the engine. It will outperform any single plenum ITB if proper testing and research is done. You don't see F1 or Indy cars lack top-end, nor you see any Ferrari's such as Enzo or F50 lack any top-end either. Like all plenums or ITB's, you can only tune power at certain RPM band unless variable lengthed runners or horns are introduced.

In most cases, single TB plenums are much easier to work with and do not require any exotic testing equipment and vigourous track testing to achieve good results. Hence, they are good for peak power because they are more flexible in design (runner lengths/diameter/etc...). For ITB's, it's hard to experiment and land on something good. If you are really looking for top-end power, I guess you can always go with a large and short runner with large throttles, but then you have to sacrifice midrange because of lack of R&D.

I like the Jenvey/hayward ITB's because they have a larger drag race version of ITB's. The larger throttles and horns would ensure that you are not losing any power over a traditional plenum if top-end is the concern. I am running them now in my Integra and would never go back to single TB plenums. Throttle response is amazing, and it gives a completely different feeling to the car.

 

The reason F1 engines rely on individual throttle setups (whether the length and diameter change for every course by the way) is because with a working rev range of around 12-20,000 rpm, the cross sectional area and runner length, taper, diameter would be unrealistic to fit in the scope of the chassis. It might not seem like alot to you and I, and it isnt for a street car, but a manifold setup would probably raise the CoG just a tiny bit, and that COULD be the difference between winning and losing an F1 race.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Better in what regards? Throttle response and midrange, yes.

A plenum offers the ability to tune harmonic resonance to a higher rpm than with ITB's. You can achieve good topend gains with ITB's, don't get me wrong, but a properly built IM will produce more peak HP, and allow it to carry into the high RPM's.

By the way, TWM sucks. If you are even considering ITB's, look at Jenvey's or nothing at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont know if this statement is going to start a war! But from what I have understood sometimes peak numbers dont mean shieet. I would rather have a much bigger mid range than a huge top end. If I dont make sense im not sure how to say it but if you understand me then

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecspeed1320 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont know if this statement is going to start a war! But from what I have understood sometimes peak numbers dont mean shieet. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Someone's thinking! Now according to the graph below, which color would be optimal in a drag race? Road Race? Street car?

 

Well drag race I would think you would want top end power out the ***, the basics I understand is that after the initial torque happens hp is what makes you fast....now road race I would think you would want something to be in the power band almost all of the time. And street car a good low end powerband makes easy streetability. correct?

 

For the most part youre correct. Remember, what yo u actually feel in a car is TQ not horsepower. After the "initial TQ" as you put it, gets you off the line, you want a nice steady TQ curve that carries out for as long as possible. As long as your TQ isnt dropping off,and your RPM is climbing, so will your horsepower, and the car will feel faster in upper RPM. Youre still feeling TQ though!

 

yeah I dont know how to explain it like you pros haha...but i get the big picture.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think a properly designed intake manifold will yeild better power than a individual throttle setup. There is more cross sectional room, and some more room to play with resonance.

Having said that, i think the majority of manifolds for Honda motors that are on the market, need ALOT of work before they will outperform an ITB setup. But even a worked over manifold USUALLY wont deliver the same amount of TQ in the lower end of the rev spectrum as well as throttle response.

ITB's are easy in the sense that you bolt them on and tune them and usually (dont ask blackR), youll get a significant increase in all area's. With a manifold setup, the runner length, diameter as well as a host of other factors will determine where in the powerband your gain will be made, if any at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>


.....why do you have to bring me into this? LOL

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


.....why do you have to bring me into this? LOL</TD></TR></TABLE>

holy crap look at the posts.

 

Did you ever figure that whole mess out, Black R?

 

It was basically the tune. The timing was so retarded it was ****** stupid...! LOL

Anyway, I haven't messed with it much since then.

I had every intention of doing so - I bought a wideband and chip burner and was messing around in crome with some street tuning, but the clutch blew up and I took this time to completely rebuild the tranny with everything from the ATS catalog (close ratio ATS 1, 3, 4, 5 to compliment the ATS LSD and ATS 4.9 final drive)...

I also bought a house, so moving has taken a bit out of my time as well...

And then there's that DART talldeck that I was building anyway, so *shrug* you can see it hasn't been at the top of my priority list.....

I'll update when I get it all worked out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I had every intention of doing so - I bought a wideband and chip burner and was messing around in crome with some street tuning, but the clutch blew up and I took this time to completely rebuild the tranny with everything from the ATS catalog (close ratio ATS 1, 3, 4, 5 to compliment the ATS LSD and ATS 4.9 final drive)...</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I also bought a house, so moving has taken a bit out of my time as well...</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And then there's that DART talldeck that I was building anyway, so *shrug* you can see it hasn't been at the top of my priority list.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

can I get a loan.