gmcuajo1

Didn't found good threads on this and deside to start a new discussion.

Which is better h or b-series? ALL MOTOR.

Stock or modified.

B-series are very known. All kind of setups, combinations, parts, are available. Can say that honda b-series are most supported and known engine in the world.

H-series came mostly in preludes and some accords. Relatively more expensive cars and obviously lower number cars were sold. Definitely they are bigger than b-series and "can produce more torque", but with the power and high revving of b-series...

And me, I am building an h2b del sol.

Post your comments, builds, dyno runs, etc.

Just keep it for ALL MOTOR setups.

the171

i like the b22. the h16 is not bad tho.

ppl on honda tech will give you flack for a question like this cause everyone knows there is no better, and will expect your threads to be a little more creative.

anyways The fastest turbo cars are usually b series. i know you're asking all motor but this should say something about the engine. Its a timeless drivetrain, one of the most highly acclaimed fwd drivetrains ever from any manufacturer of small cars.

H series is really good and kind of cool because only a small group does quality H setups. H2b cars are quite capable and overlooked by a lot of tuners. But the design of the block is obviously limiting without major machine work. Plus its larger and has more parts and weighs more.

for a street car or light racing, stock for stock, H (h2b) all the way. This motor has a better power band and feels more refined. Its got great torque even stock. Plus they sound really fun. For a more serious race car id go B or possibly K. B series transmissions are the best hands down though imo, for an oem trans.

93ericSi

I am currently running a B18 and greatly considering going H2B.

Primarily for the displacement difference. IMO I can spend a bunch of money building a B all motor. But the same money can get an even bigger H with more power/torque whatever your care is. And also down the track a lot faster. That being said H trans' are weak. Unless your like some and got a non oem gearset.


When it comes to A/M cars I will stick with the old adage "there's no replacement for displacement"

Turbos make up for it. But that's not A/M

strykr89

If your looking for a straight line car then h2b setups are great, but for something you want to go to a autox or track and be able to hold high rpm then id go with an B. But thats only from my experience between the two with all motor.

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

NA = H2B whether stock block, fully built, autocross, or drag. H series can hold high RPM fine if you have it set up correctly, and proper suspension can easily accommodate the weight differential.

Turbo, it gets a little more complicated and depends entirely on your goals and budget. For the average person, B series turbo would be the better choice.

TracerAcer2.2L

Uh oh, lock this thread quick, it's about to get nasty!haha

Lol at you guys thinking you need a B series tranny.

B series- Over hyped because it is found in the Type R civic and Integra. Only good for boost. After much modification, doesnt make much more power than a stock H series.


H series- The predecessor to the F20c and F22c legendary motors. Uses much of the same technology and design. Can easily be made to rev higher, if needed. Transmission is not weak, but does have longer gearing. Adifferent transmission is reccomended.

Edit: There is hardly any weight differential between the B and H series, as has been proven several times by such publications as Honda Tuning magazine and others, so get over it!

gmcuajo1

I haven't build any of the two but have been around some time. Haven't seen much b18 ls-vtec over 200whp, and that with lot of mods. What help is that B-series parts are relatively inexpensive and can be found everywere.

Here people reported ~215whp on almost stock h22's with bolt-ons and tuning...

I bet for h-series. Will see...

jaydmdude

Can you be more specific as to what specific technology is shared from a h22 to f20/f22c?

From what i've usually seen so far any motor got their flaws. B series imo, lacks displacement. The h series has displacement. I've seen h22 make 230+ with cams, i,h,e but i've also seen the same from a b18. If built right, both should make excellent power.

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

In a stock configuration B series transmissions are more durable, have less parasitic loss, come with better gear ratios generally, and are in a lot of cars that are already swapped (or just came with them from the factory). This makes the H2B option a great choice for people that want more power and already have a b series swap. Just get the adapter, header, and long block and viola' more horsepower and torque than most street driven fully built B series. No one thinks they "need" a B series transmission, but for must people H2B is a much better option.

No one is saying that there is a major weight differential between the H and the B. Its really minor, and easily handled by appropriate suspension for the application. Most likely, unless you are doing some competitive autocross or something like that you probably wont have to adjust your suspension at all (what is it like a 20-50lbs difference or something... I don't remember).

Also the vtec B series and the H series use pretty much the same basic technology. It not like the H series represents some leap in Honda's engineering. There is nothing too distinct about the design of the H series when compared to the B series... just a better flowing head and more displacement pretty much. Of course, the castings are different, H series uses FRM sleeves blah blah blah, but at the end of both are DOHC Vtec engines which similar compression manufactured simultaneously (for the most part) and designed by the same engineering staff.

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

Rhetorical question is rhetorical.

TracerAcer2.2L

I really thought it was common knowledge that the F series was born out of the H....

Specifically, the bottom ends between the F and H are very similar. Both have very similar cranks and pistons (not sure on rods, likely) and both use the FRM sleeves, as does the NSX.
I would say their heads are somewhat similar, except the F uses roller rockers. The valvetrain must be very similar though, because the only thing stopping you from using those rockers on an H is the oiling passage (if I remember right, don't quote me. But I know there is a thread describing the very small reason why you can't use F rockers on an H)

TracerAcer2.2L

I agree with all of this. About the weight, I thought by weight difference you meant the 100+ lb difference most people imagine lol.
I suppose it is a good choice for those who already have the tranny, but for those who don't, there are just as/nearly as good options out there.
They aren't much different other than what you stated, so there isn't a HUGE leap, like between say, a B series and the F, but there is a leap nonetheless, and whether it's the better head or the FRM sleeves, that leap makes the H a better N/A performer, as the OP asked

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

Hrrmmm...



I think it would be in your best interest to keep your mouth closed and eyes/ears open. Hence why I said you should "slow down" in the other thread.

jaydmdude

The h22/f20b have more similarities with each other because they are literally the same engine. A bloated up cam/valvetrain setup via a bvtec design slapped onto a block with frm sleeves carried over from b21s and a bottom feed oiling system brought over from the d series. beside the usual frm sleeves/compatible pistons, seems like the f20/22c got its design and technology from the ks.

TracerAcer2.2L

Ok sooo...one vid is against a K series and has nothing to do with this thread?
And the other, doesnt say what motor is in the other car, I'll assume it's an H. Even still, I don't see what point you're trying to make. So what, someone built their B better than the other guy built his H? That proves nothing?
Better check yourself, Rice

Edit: Oh, you've got a B...I forgive you. Nice Rotas BTW lol

TracerAcer2.2L

Google+search=answers

Edit: http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/06...stroker_build/
Uses a TSX crank in the article, but should be noted that the H crank also fits

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_F20C_engineAlthough it says it's a relative of the old F series, as you said F and H are basically the same for our purposes here

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

Both video's are B vs. K.

Derp post is derp. Again.

gmcuajo1

I think you should say that you refer specifically to f20/22c from s2000.

A lot of later honda's uses roller rockers. Even the d17 vtec uses them...

TracerAcer2.2L

Then neither video has anything to do with H vs B? Great, I thought it was something halfway relavent
What does "derp post is derp" even mean...is that some teenie-bopper "swag" language?

Sorry gmcuaho1, I thought it was apparent which F I was talking about based on context clues from our conversation....
But yes, the F20/22c is the only motor with rockers that is similar to the H (that I know of)

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

FRM sleeves alone make the B series a 'better' engine. There is far more support, and parts are far more easily sourced. You also don't need to shave down your block or purchase any kits to run the superior B series transmission.

The H is not a bad motor, but the B is, and always has been, THE motor for swapped hondas.

TracerAcer2.2L

Idk about parts being more easily sourced, I've found everything for my H just fine.... the only thing I've seen that would be hard to source for an H series would be Ferrea rollers.
It is very good that it comes with the transmission already, but when you have a K killer right off the bat just by swapping the stock motor....dang. It's also much easier to make more power from the H from what I've seen, especially if you have a custom header and intake.
I don't want to argue, I seriously want to know what the B hype is all about, I've always been an H fan. Just the way I see it, the B is inferior right out of the box, even without frm, transmissions aside

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

LOL this thread... Nice one OP... Nice one.
It all comes down to budget and goal before someone calls any platform "THE platform". Each platform has its place.

FRM sleeves are fine in the H series. They make engine building more expensive usually since re-sleeving is needed for most forged pistons. Also the stock ring-lands on the H series are prone to failure under boost conditions. But overall in a stock configuration they are very strong. I have seen stock sleeve H series run well over 500WHP on stock sleeves with no problems (with the sleeves). H series FRM sleeves are plenty strong for most applications, and the sleeves are not the first point of failure in the H series. (Here is a youtube video of H2B stock internal making 550+WHP on methanol: /watch?v=aj2V5B2Ed1I&index=12&list=UUYxbJEy8u_lIKF8 OWQdPJ8A).

Between the 2 platforms, for a person wanting a very good NA performance and OEM Honda reliability, H2B is the way to go. You can spend thousands of dollars on a B series pump-gas street build and just to get to the performance of a stock internal H2B. Why people still do this, I will never understand. In that scenario, H2B is a way better option and the FRM sleeves are irrelevant. All that B series aftermarket support and thousands of dollars later all you get is an engine that can only keep up with a stock internal H series... SMH.

In the event that you want spend some more money and build for NA, then the H2B wins again. You can run a bigger bore, the head flows better (whether stock or properly ported), and there is enough aftermarket support to get what you need. I mean what do you really need for an NA build? In the H, you most likely need some sleeves (plenty of options there), you need valve springs and retainers (plenty of options there), you need a camshaft (plenty of options there), intake manifold (Plenty of options there, Skunk, K2H, Modified OEM), and a header (not too many shelf options for the h2b, however the Logic works really well, and modifying most H series for the H2B is an option an well), injectors (same options as B series), clutch (same options there), pistons and rods (plenty of options there)... that is pretty much it. In the end, a properly built H will beat a comparably built B pretty much every time.

I know OP, wants to limit discussion to ALL MOTOR applications... but... ummm... sorry..

In the case that you want to boost an OEM block, its hard to beat the B series. From the LS B18 to the B16 to the B18Cs, all can be turned into very good and reliable turbo cars with more performance than most people need for a street car. Its really is great that you can buy a stock internal LS for next to nothing, put a small/medium turbo on it and get fast spooling 300WHP reliably. Sure you can get there with the H series/H2b, but it would be more expensive for most people (unless your car is already an H, and the transmission won't hold up as well), and there stock ring lands don't hold up as well. In that case, for the average person with a limited budget, the B series is the a better choice. I know there are lots of people running over 300WHP pump gas on a stock H series as well, but overall the B series is a better choice for most folks in the above mentioned scenario.

While we are on the subject of "THE platform", lets not forget the DEEEEE SEEER-EEEZ. The little single slammers are a great option for some people as well. The D series transmissions are plenty strong to handle just about any WHP you can get out of a stock long block. For people that don't want to swap or build, a good clutch and good turbo system and tune will get you can get 260+ reliable WHP. Of course there a plenty of people running more WHP in their stock DEEZ. For a lot of people on a budget the D is the way to do it. Heck, even a build turbo D is a good choice for some people and great performance is available in that platform. A stock D16 CRX boosted properly will be a street-driven rocket ship for most people's standards, will be fairly reliable, and can be accomplished relatively affordably.

So in the end they all have their place, but between the H and B, the H series has more potential generally.

TracerAcer2.2L

You are SPOT on. Thank you for writing all that, I was going to write something similar but I'm tired of always having to defend my stance to know it alls lol. I wanted to say what you said about the FRM sleeves, but didn't feel like pulling up a source, thanks for that.


Since it's the pinnacle of motorsport, I like to look at everything from the perspective of F1 racing.
How do those tiny motors make so much HP?? Well, basically, it's in the RPM.
In part, that's why the "torqueless wonder" is so great: 9,000rpm out of a little motor equals good HP.
So what happens when you take the larger displacement H and move it's power band up like the B's? Power goes up exponentially.
The B seems somewhat limited by its design, in that it is already at a very high rpm, and can only be stroked so much

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Haha. I agree. I'll raise your "hrmm" and add a "orly?"

Garage Works EG6 B-series Fastest NA lap Tsukuba Record

m_shake

Thing is a death trap lol!! Drifto @ 1:08