0MrHeeltoe

UPDATE 5/13/2010:

I spoke with Rob at F2 and we agreed about making the front dampers just a bit firmer, and the rear dampers might not need to change at all really. I am going to test one level softer spring in the rear to see if I can get that last little bit of ride compliance with one person in the car with the valving we have in there now.

And now I am going to put it out there...

If we take 2-3 level payments over the next 30-60 days, who is willing to pull the trigger on:

HT-Spec Type-1 kit for $659 shipped
HT-Spec Type-2 kit for $945 shipped
Add Eibach springs, $200


Or make a package:

Stage 1:
HT-Spec Type-1 set for 1.5" drop
Ingalls Rear Camber Kit
$799 shipped

Stage 2:
HT-Spec Type-2 set for 1.5" drop
Ingalls Rear Camber Kit
$1099 shipped

Stage 3:
HT-Spec Type-2, set for 2.00" drop with Eibach springs
Skunk2 Front Camber Kit
Ingalls Rear Camber Kit
Progress Rear Sway Bar
$1599 shipped

Stage 4:
HT-Spec Type-2, set for 2.50" drop
Custom spring preload settings for performance
Skunk2 Front Camber Kit
Ingalls Rear Camber Kit
Progress Rear Sway Bar
$1699

Canadian surcharge for shipping applies if USPS shipping is requested, approximate $100-150 per kit.



UPDATE 5/10/2010:


Ok dudes, the new dampers are installed front and rear. The kit is getting really close to being ready now. Notable point: We tested revised rear brackets this time around that fit perfectly with no grinding!!! They fit nicely in the rear carriers. So that is a non-issue now for TSX drivers.

The new dampers tested are 15% firmer in the front and 15% softer in the rear. The ride is much more compliant and the handling seems well balanced with these new dampers. I have not had a chance to rail the car really hard but definitely cruising the streets it feels really smooth. The dampers are still maxed out, full firm in the front and full soft in the rear, leaving me wishing for some softer clicks in the rear. I am not sure the front would ever need to be firmer, but I don't like the idea of the car feeling good maxed out. I'd feel better if the max firm setting was too firm. I pulled a little auto-x maneuver though and the car cuts around turns really well. No bucking or lurching, float is nearly dialed out of the front. The only thing that seems to be hurting the car is front traction when turning. This car really needs an LSD (cha-ching, this is the part of modding I hate). I think the front needs a few more clicks firmer, just so we can really explore more range of the dampers. As it is, I am going to dial it back a bit to see if I can get more grip up front. I am running about 1.5 degrees camber in front as well.

I drove to my folks house for Mother's Day and even with a wife, kid, and mother-in-law on board the car feels really nice. I wanna say it feels like stock! Nobody mentioned the ride or groaned about it at all! For a car that is 2.25" lower than stock, that is saying a lot! The added weight of 1-2 people mellow the ride to a totally stock feeling. It is sort of the same scenario I had initially, where the car felt OK with a bunch of weight in the car. Now the car feels OK with an empty tank and 1 person, and feels great with the weight. If 15% decrease in firmness got us here, I think another 15% would be perfect! The only time you feel the suspension is when you go over certain conditions what normally rock the body around. This kit dampens all that bobbing and rolling, which can give you the sense that you are riding firmer, but really you are just better connected with the road.

I have not completely decided what needs to happen in the front. I want to dial the shocks back a little to see if it helps gain some front grip under power. Will be tinkering with that today. I think it might be time to get the rear sway bar added in as well to see how that impacts things.

As far as height goes, I know that a lot of people want to really slam their cars. This kit has me with about zero tire gap all around right now, and the ability to shorten the dampers by multiple inches all around. Going low will never be a problem with this kit at all. One thing I do get asked a lot is what suspension to get if you DON'T want to lower the car much. Like, at an A-Spec level. Well, this kit, as it is now, will not do that. The lower damper brackets are too short to accommodate raising the car more than about 1". I want to get about 2" more height out of this kit at the highest level. We can do that with new longer damper brackets. This will allow the following max and min settings:

Max Low FR about 3.5"
Max Low RR more than 4.0"

Max High FR about .5" down from stock
Max High RR about stock level

What looks to be developing here is a kit that is tuned for and has enough adjustment range for:
Street Performance driving
Stock-like ride
Light track use
Show-car slamming
Near stock height sleeper status

We are getting really close guys! One more teaser...we will be testing a prototype electronic controller for F2 in the coming weeks as well.


UPDATE 5/7/2010:

I just got the new front dampers in. The car does feel much more confident in the very brief drive I went on. The front seems to respong much better in hard tight turns, and doesn't float around in rolling high speed bumps. But it is still adjusted full firm, so I think want this stiffest front setting to be the middle setting in the final iteration of the kit.

It still feels bad though, more firm overall since the rear dampers need to be changed out for the softer ones still. Another update coming later today or tomorrow!



UPDATE 5/4/2010:

Dampers received today! 15% stiffer front, 15% softer rears.

Also got some new rear mounts to check the dimension to make sure our HT-spec kit will need no grinding.

Trying to plan installation this week but it might not happen til Sunday.


UPDATE 5/3/2010 Take 2:

Oh I forgot to let you guys in on the UR bracing impressions.

I installed the front lower brace and the side lower braces, and an alutec tower brace. I think most of the effect is coming from the side braces and the car definitely feels more rigid over bumps. I always thought of bracing as something that would take whatever the car tended to do and amplify it.

And I was right. If the thing felt out of whack before, it definitely does now. The front is all over the place. The ride feels a tad firmer, but not in a way that is uncomfortable at all. It just feels like, you can feel what the chassis is doing. It really just reinforces what I was saying this whole time as far as how the dampers need work, and I am really glad that I can finally test it out this week!


UPDATE 5/3/2010:

F2 just emailed me! The new dampers came in today and the revised lower brackets did as well. I plan to pick up tomorrow and will report back as soon as possible with the fitment and driving review.



UPDATE 4/27/2010:

Got my alignment done today!

Location:
American Tire & Brake - Home
I recommended them to my facebook fans a few weeks ago (you are a facebook fan, right? we had a great post today)

These guys are cool

We have all seen people post up their specs. Mine look no different from the "before" side of things.

The "After" however might look different.

I have the front toe out -1/32 on both sides to help the car turn in a bit better. Also I set the rear toe to 0" on both sides, which is also at the outer-most level of the factory spec. Just to try it out.

Also of note, I tossed in a Skunk2 front camber kit and dialed in about 1.75 degrees of camber up front. The rear is throwing like 3.25 degrees which is nuts!

After the alignment I went back to my old canyon spot again. The car feels more stable with the alignment. I did not want to judge the sus too much before getting it done, but really I can say my initial feelings were pretty accurate. Some continuing thought:

What might normally feel like "potential oversteer" could really be best characterized by an insecure feeling when pushing the car. If the front is too soft, as is the case right now, it will want to dig in which is all well and good until you need to slow mid-corner or you hit something that compresses the suspension. In either care you get a tendency for the car to pirouette on the outside front tire. Oversteer! I never felt like I could induce it "accidentally" and it feels really good in corners, but I was just getting a nervous feeling from the car telling me "It's ok, but if you mess up you are going in a ditch." I don't even have an upgraded RSB! I don't like that feeling. I WILL dial it out before releasing this kit.

Having the additional grip from more front camber certainly doesn't help things, and I am sure toeing the rear out doesn't help either. But the problem is not really in the alignment it is in the dampers. I contacted F2 yesterday and they admitted the communication with their factory is not specifically continuous, nor is it reassuring. But the results are fairly consistent. It was communicated to me that replacement dampers are probably no more than 2-3 weeks away.

So I will definitely be keeping you guys 'posted' of the progress.

I think what I will do during the downtime is brace the living hell out of my car, so I can effectively tell you all how that really impacts the FEEL of the chassis.

Marcus

UPDATE 4/24/2010:

So, I have been having trouble getting the rear of this kit to sit right. To get the height level from left to right I was having to adjust the right much higher than the left :/ I couldn't figure it out!

Well, I was in the front today, swapping out the stock arms for some Skunk2 Adjustable arms (in an effort to get some more front camber) and I made a startling ovservation. One of the front shocks was not installed correctly. "!" I thought. I won't get into the details, but suffice it to say, I will not be letting people work on my car unsupervised and more. Likewise, any HT-Spec parts will come with really detailed instructions to help prevent errors.

At any rate, with the front camber kit in my toe is now horrifically off so I will be getting an alignment done this week.

On the dampers, still waiting to get some information back from F2 on the new valving rates. Will be cranking up the heat this week. Last week they were pretty busy.


UPDATE 4/20/2010:
Update so far is really just that my wife and I have put a few hundred miles on the suspension as it was on 4/12. I have the fronts at full stiff, and they need to be a bit stiffer, and I have the rears at full soft, and they really could stand to be softer....the imbalance on the dampening is a little startling. I am glad we are doing this!!!

When making dampers firmer, it is noticed at one point that float goes away, and if you keep going firmer the car has a greater tendency to slide. That 1-2 click in between is the "sweet spot." That "sweet spot" really is impacted by the car's variables, as well as the variables you introduce with different wheels and tires, alignment settings (including camber), and sway bars. I am unable to really test the limit on the street so I am looking for an opportunity to drive the car harder to find the "sweet spot."

Our test TSX is completely stock in the suspension with some so-so OEM sized tires on it. The next additions to the tuning will be adjustable front and rear camber kits. The front needs more camber and the rear could use a bit less for the street. Our primary objective here is to tune the kit so that the following priorities are met:

1- Low heights can be achieved while maintaining excellent bump absorbing. Body control is good enough to prevent "boaty" feeling but suspension is as comfortable as stock when needed. We want low impact on the driver when adjusted softer.
2- Balanced handling with no other suspension mods needed. Additional mods will increase the total performance of the car, but the kit will not require the use of other parts to "complete" the system. Adjustment to the dampers will allow the optimization of other parts added. There will be enough performance potential for light duty track use, as it track days, auto-x and time trials. Kit not for competition use.
3- Height adjustment will allow near-stock ride heights.

Update 4/12/10:
Since the rear of this car was so firm and the front was so soft, it really made the car handle odd. The front was floating with every bump and there was a eery lack of control. This was compounded by the rear springs being so firm that the kit had little compliance. So, I changed the rear springs.

I installed some softer springs (6kg? versus high rate ones that were there, I think 9 or 10kg) in the rear and the ride is MUCH better. Through the canyon I can push the car WITHOUT having a heavy damper kit in the trunk. The best performance still comes with the rear at 100% SOFT and the front at 100% STIFF. We are getting close to a great setup.

Just need the front dampers a little firmer and the rear dampers a bit softer...working with F2 right now on it. HT-Spec will have the "stiff" setting the front is at now to become the "soft" setting, and the "soft" setting the rear is at now to become the "medium" setting. This will allow people to get a really comfortable ride out of the kit on full soft, feeling much like stock, no matter how low the car is. But it will also allow drivers to tune the firmness to suit their setups and style.




I have been talking with F2 for about a month now about making a kit for the TSX that fits without any grinding (the current kit is an Accord kit that needs to be modded slightly to fit the TSX).

Well, yesterday was my first chance to get in, meet Rob and Preston, and talk dirt on how we would design and market a damper kit for the TSX. The goal here is to make a damper kit that is:
* affordable for the TSX audience (with damper kit options at $700 and $1100)
* highly adjustable for height (serving both 1" drops and tire-tuckers)
* high end street performance (likes to rail corners, not likely to visit the track)
* refined ride that is sporty but comfortable (similar to what a 3-series with a sport package feels like, where you can really feel the road, but it doesn't bit your butt too hard).

The point to this project is to not only make a kit that will bolt on to the TSX without problems, but also to make a kit tuned the way we see most of our customers would want. We are evaluating different setups and will be revising the driving impressions as the kit is refined!

The big benefit here being that I, with unsurpassed installation and driving experience in TSXs, could lead a first-hand customer driven tuning approach to a damper kit. This could well turn out to be THE best street sports/performance option for everyone here. First, driving impressions. Second, some pics.





Initial impressions.


Before I even got out the driveway, I could tell the front was way too soft and the rear was way too stiff (medium settings at all 4 dampers). The car felt like it was on a washboard yet the front end felt strangely disconnected. I can't imagine how this feels in a V6 accord, it must be really odd. In the TSX, it is flat wrong.

After cruising for a while I stopped for gas and moved the front 8 clicks firmer and the rear 8 clicks softer. It helped a little bit, but as I learned at F&F, this damper kit does not make the night and day change that an N+ would have, lock to lock*. You can really feel the road but it is not harsh per say. That is the firm rubber upper mount at work, which is good**. But the rear was still so firm in the back, the ride was too uncomfortable. Softer springs are needed in the back and firmer ones would be nice in the front.

My next stop after F2 was to AAI (Buddy Club) where I tossed 2 sets of N+ in the trunk (irony? haha). With the additional 100 lbs or so in the trunk and a now-full tank of gas (about another 90-100 lbs), the car started to feel more comfortable, if still a bit on the firm side. I find that when you go over dips in the road the suspension in the front seems to lack droop / down-travel to be comfortable. Possibly there needs to be a bit longer stroke so that when on the freeway the suspension has a chance to rebound into drop-off situations to carry the car better and the road drops away. As it is now, if the road does one of those long smooth dips (like on the freeway) the car seems to fall into the dip which creates this startling weightless feeling. The body is well controlled but this feeling is too uncomfortable for my customers. So, we need to tweak that.

I ended up taking Santiago canyon home, which is about 45-55 mph 2-lane back road (not a "canyon run"). The road is smooth and feels really fast with this suspension. The ride was good (no bumps or dips) and the car seemed to track really well. There is a good feeling of stability and control. In the back of my head I know there was still 200lbs in the car that was helping smooth it out though.

At the end of Santiago Canyon is Live Oak Canyon (my own little touge 1 mile from home )
Sucky vid of it, I think I need to do my own
YouTube - Live Oak Canyon run

Anyway I get through this thing in the top of third and some chances for WOT in 4th, no 2nd gears and I don't think you get over 80 if you are being prudent (it is really very unsafe here). There are lots of good brake-in, gas out high camber 3rd gear turns and some right-left transitions. With the car set how it was it felt fairly well balanced and confident. The rear camber really helped maintain grip in the back, but there did not seem to be much understeer at all. I did feel some loss of traction on the front outside wheel under acceleration out of turns, but this thing hasn't been aligned yet so there is too much toe-in also. Lastly on the alignment, camber on this car tends not to change a lot in the front but in the rear you get a lot of change. Most people correct the rear camber and leave the front alone. I am thinking more front camber would help front end grip a lot, and "fixing" the rear could well induce some oversteer. For now I am going to install a camber kit so that I can control and equalize the camber, but I can't see putting rear camber back to zero (or even factory spec) as a good thing, from a street performance perspective. Tire wear is a non-issue, especially if you take corners faster than your Mom does.

The car does have the stock rear sway bar and this suspension raises a serious doubt as to the need to upgrade the stock one. That is, until I remember the extra weight I was carrying. So at this point I pulled off and adjusted the rear just a bit more soft (4 more clicks, almost full soft at this point) to see how it would handle with a "better riding" setting, knowing that if it felt too soft with more understeer the rear sway bar could be changed to fix that). With the new setting (now 3/4 or so firm in front and full soft on the rear, bunch of weight in the back) the car stayed just as confident with maybe a touch loss in speed, but then again, feeling slow and smooth is faster most of the time. What I really liked was that you could feel the rear digging in as you throttle out of turns. You can manage the weight of the car well. A rear sway bar could get a better feeling of rotation but probably is not needed for street speed. This still needs to be re-evaluated with more front camber and firmer front rates though.

So, next I am going to try fitting some firmer front springs and softer rear ones, and mess with the dampening some more to see what is going to work best before locking in specs.


* Having a closer damper range setting is really a good thing. Tein tunes their dampers this way. What it means is, there is a lot less range in the adjustment allowing for a much finer tune on the damper settings. The dampers are valved for a specific spring rate which makes the refinement very high. N+ and many others have a very wide damper click range, meaning they can use one damper for lots of different cars and spring rates...cheaper to make, less refined, on the surface seems like a nice feature but you get a bit less for the $ really.

** Pillow mounts can transmit more noise and harshness, while rubber mounts tend to absorb vibration and noise much better. The firm rubber in the F2 Type-2 system strikes a great balance between stability and comfort.


Pics

I don't have any pics of the height, that is irrelevant, this kit will let you hit nearly any height from 1"-drop to laying frame so that is a moot argument. My car has about a zero tire gap now.

Note the Eibach springs on the kit we tested. The Type-1 kits come with F2 springs, and the Type-2 kits we offer will come with Eibachs. Believe it or not, this is an official relationship. Eibach actually brought in and tested F2 dampers for quality and function before agreeing to become a partner, which really opened my eyes a bit. I initially made the mistake of F2 being a "cheapie" coilover company, and clearly I was wrong. These twin-tube dampers are well on par with the best street parts we get, and the only thing lacking is rebuilding opportunity.

We also spec'd the rear damper bracket so that the TSX specific kit will not need any grinding to fit right.