Chemicalviper

Hi all - new to the EP forum, not honda-tech.

This winter ill be buying a nice suspension setup for once- instead of just springs.

I need help with experience from ep owners of a full coilover setup like tein, omnipower, and others.

This is what im looking for:
-Camber adjustment critical - i always end up eating tires. - ignalls or on setup already?
-Ride height
-Stiffness/dampner, doesnt have to be extreme and electronically controlled.

Goals:
-Daily driver, occasional track and drag use.
-Want firm ride and obviously less body roll (coupled w/ sway bar)


Not really wanting to spend a sh!tload, like theres 12 levels of tein, i dont need the highest most likely.


Thanks all for input - if you wanna see pics of ep chek below.

George Knighton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chemicalviper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is what im looking for:
-Camber adjustment critical - i always end up eating tires. - ignalls or on setup already?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why's camber adjustment critical? You'll usually burn up the rubber w/a bad alignment (toe), not camber. You'd have to go something like 4 degrees before camber was wearing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Goals:
-Daily driver, occasional track and drag use.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
A lot of people seem to have done well w/the no-brainer solution of the Mugen Sport Suspension coupled with either the front and rear DC5 Type S bars or the OEM USDM EP3 front bar coupled with the DC5 ITR rear bar.

This is what I've had for a while.

There's a different replacement suspension on order, but I don't think I should report on that until after I've installed it and driven it some.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why's camber adjustment critical? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Camber plates up front would be nice

glw

the major thing you're gonna have to worry about is;
the forced toe-in for camber over -2.25* camber

some of the key features to look for are (not in any specific order);
adjustable damper body (to lower ride height without preloading springs)
damper valving and spring rates
damper adjustments and their location
camber plates
materials and quality
customer service

items you're probably gonna want in addition to some tools;
toe plates*
camber guage*

* got mine from longacreracing.com

fireant

Front camber on the EP3 is somewhat limited by the toe going in when you try to dial in negative camber for the track. I learned today that by using aftermarket front camber bolts in conjunction with camber plates the effect on toe is much less, and I was able to get -2.6 degrees and keep 0-toe. With only plates, I was previously stuck at about -1.8 before the toe went in. Also, it depends on how low you are dropped

For the rears, an SPC kit is a great way to get the camber back to normal after lowering. I had a friend who stripped the Ingalls kit, so I went SPC.

Honestly, if your track use is truly occasional (not every other weekend), there's nothing wrong with the Mugen Sport suspension, a CTR rear sway bar, and a front-rear camber kit. This should set you back around $1250, not including labor and alignment, and you car should handle very well. The camber kit will give you something to twiddle with, but the Mugen SS is not adjustable, nor is the CTR bar.

The next option in terms of getting something that is adjustable would be Tien FLEX, JIC FLT-A2s, or maybe the lower-cost D2 coilovers (that have yet to be widely user-tested, but look promising). These kits have moderate spring rates that are street-ready, but OK for occasional track-use.

At one time, I would have recommended you look in to KW-suspensions, but it seems they never released a kit with good spring rates, and they kinda fell off the face of the earth marketing and support-wise.

The next step up would be something more track-ready and Buddy-Club comes to mind, or the custom JIC setup with higher spring rates. Tien probably has an equivalent as well.

Koni and (soon) KYB have adjustable shocks for the EP3 that could be mated with Ground control Coils, but heres the rub: Unless you get something custom valved, those might not last too long with the higher rear spring rates that the EP3 wants to sport (I only have 560 in the rear, but I'm going to go 700, and some folks are out there with 900)



Modified by hatch2k at 12:44 AM 9/26/2004

Chemicalviper

Great input guys, thankyou very much.

Camber is actually critical for more or less cost effectiveness in my case rather than track. My last car = 99 Eclipse GST had a camber set of about -1.8, ate the insides like **** and was aligned twice and had lil' toe. Car before, was at -1.2 but toe ate those tires.

-Im now looking for suggestions on suspension setup, aka tein ect I would like to know what camber kits work best, skunk, ignalls, spc... etc.

My question is there any full coil-over setup that has camber plate ajustments ?


-The reason im looking for ride height adjustability is the climate i live in... wisconsin - Stock ride height for winter, lowered for summer/track.

And as far as George to the mugen setup - how much did your setup cost, ive heard the mugen setup costs 1g. Thats about the edge of my cash balance that I would like to spend... but does the mugen setup offer dampner or ride height ajustability ?

George Knighton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chemicalviper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And as far as George to the mugen setup - how much did your setup cost, ive heard the mugen setup costs 1g. Thats about the edge of my cash balance that I would like to spend... but does the mugen setup offer dampner or ride height ajustability ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

There's no adjustability in the Mugen SS at all. The dampers are set for those springs at a set ride height, and that's that. LOL...

However, the Mugen SS is designed thoughtfully, and if you get the Mugen SS you really do not have to do anything else w/the suspension except get the toe set. It's designed to lower with a set suspension setting in mind.

The Mugen SS is not for hard core track use. However, especially when combined with the DC5 ITR rear swaybar, it does help the handling a hell of a lot. I wouldn't go racing with it. I also bent one shaft in a pothole, and replacing one or two of the units is a problem. It's very hard to do.

As far as the cost, you're never going to be able to save a lot of money on the Mugen SS. King Motorsports has a monopoly on Mugen products in the USA. They are only going to cut 10% to a small retailer, and the most I'm aware of their cutting is 20% to a volume retailer who wants to be able to sell a few Mugen products.

There just aren't that many good, cheap suspension alternatives for the EP3. My Mugen SS suspension is coming off as soon as a manufacturer finishes his redesign of an EP3 application, but I'm afraid to recommend it until after I've tried it.

Todd00

For $1K, there is no way you can touch the Mugen setup for performance, longetivity, quality, etc. You must fork out about another $500 to get something a little better (JIC, Tein Flex, etc) with some adjustability.

Suspension for the EP3/RSX is not as cheap or easy as it was with the older cars, period.

DC5ITR329

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For $1K, there is no way you can touch the Mugen setup for performance, longetivity, quality, etc. You must fork out about another $500 to get something a little better (JIC, Tein Flex, etc) with some adjustability.

Suspension for the EP3/RSX is not as cheap or easy as it was with the older cars, period.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mugen SS is worth it. if you want to just drive your car and not worry about it, the SS setup is good. it doesn't lower alot but the ride is nice. Teins are also nice but sometimes the perches get loose. so you have to check them like every 3 months. plus if you want some nice teins then you have to spend about 1500.

kung fu grip

here's a misnomer about coilovers...

adjustable ride height is that easy.

no.

you can severely affect the balance and ride characteristics of the car. also, everytime you adjust them, you need to realign the wheels...all four.

i suggest researching suspension dynamics and how they work, otherwise it's like a monkey banging away on a typewriter (no offense).

in all reality, until you learn what the suspension adjustments do, and how to adjust them to your driving style (do NOT adjust to the setup) the best way for you to go is GOOD peformance springs with GOOD adjustable struts.

one last thing...swaybars are meant to FINE-TUNE a suspension, not overpower it. automatically putting on a big swaybar without having proper driving skills is not only idiotic, but it is dangerous for others you may be sharing the road with.

remember: darwin is watching.

fireant

Correct, you cannot change anything about the ride hieght without affecting the toe and camber.... front or back. Adjusting the height means you need an alignment... period.

To answer your question, both Tien Flex and JIC FLT-A2 have adjustable camber plates.

Chemicalviper

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hatch2k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Adjusting the height means you need an alignment... period.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


I know. I have no problem at all with that, i already knew this, i would only be adjusting the height for summer months and then for winter., i dont mind getting it aligned twice.

fireant

I see. I hope I can get it down to just two next year... this year was alot of setup for me, so 5 so far

kung fu grip

for previous cars, particularly cars with macpherson systems, i could get very good alignments using a string, a plumb, and a good measuring tape on my garage floor.

Ocelaris

I'll comment on the KW suspensions since I have the V2 (the original release). They did sorta fall off the planet, and that's sorta disappointing. They still sell it and everything, but their distributor is a VW dealer, and the guy who was in charge of bringing it to the EM/ES/EP/RSX crowd isn't out in the forums or promoting it...

With that said, with my limited experience... it's a nice design, looks like the Teins that I've seen but purple and yellow... Theoretically you can get custom spring rates made... I just put on their upper bearing mounts, which has camber adjustment (or might be toe?)...

Now I've prefaced this with I only have experience with 1 set of coilovers, mine, so my opinion may be pretty useless, but I know 2 guys one from ephatch and one from 7thgen who have blown a damper (one rear, and other was front). Mine seem fine from my inexperienced install... all the dampers make a "wooshing" sound to different degrees, maybe they had air in them when I installed them? Anyways, they're pretty nice, but makes me wary how I've not seen anybody else promoting them lately...

I believe the KWs are like ~1400 retail, got mine for 1200, and upper bearing mounts for 200$...
I thought spring rates went like this:

Omnipower ~ D2 ~ Mugen &lt; Tein Basic &lt; KW V2 &lt; Tein Flex &lt; JIC MAGIC FLT2

The tein flex and JIC Magic FLT2 I think come with upper bearing/pillow mounts, and camber adjustment, but you'll probably want camber for the rear, and the front camber bolts are like 10$... so why not...

The best buy for the EP3 was the CTR rear sway 22 mm... 100$ upgrade from the stock 15mm made a huge difference. 20$ for greasable poly bushings too...

I bought a neuspeed upper strut tower, does tighten down the front, but I played around with not having it on, and personally, save your $$, it handles better IMO without it (oversteer with it on)

Personally, if I started from scratch again, I would've prefferred to get the Tein Flex or JIC Flta2 (can never remember exactly the name) but they're both like 1600$ or so, and if you're going like 1200$ into full coilovers... The JIC magic have adjustable height upper and lower perches I think... so full damper motion... Wish I had saved longer, though I think mine are nice if I knew how to set them up!

anjapower

any opinions on the progress competition coilovers?

kung fu grip

pillow mounts sometimes have castor and camber, camber being the most common (hence "camber plates"). toe CANNOT be adjusted from them. that is where adjustable tie-rod end come in...

camber bolts are great for street and tha average schmoe, but the flatten and slip after time.

rear camber is controlled through the upper links, not camber plates. if our cars had a rear macpherson suspension camber plates COULD be used to adjust camber back there.

i'm not discounting anyone's post, just adding clarity.

George Knighton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kung fu grip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... just adding clarity.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which is appreciated. Thanks.

Ocelaris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kung fu grip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">pillow mounts sometimes have castor and camber, camber being the most common (hence "camber plates"). toe CANNOT be adjusted from them. that is where adjustable tie-rod end come in...

i'm not discounting anyone's post, just adding clarity.</TD></TR></TABLE>

heh, I thought you were answering my questions :-) should have said thanks like George, but wasn't sure if you were referring to me. So... Thanks :-)

I think I installed one of my camber plates upside down... because every picture I've ever seen the adjustment has been perpendicular to the tires, which would make sense for camber adjustments... But since the upper bearing mounts on the EP3 have irregularly spaced triangle bolts... They can only go so many different ways... and none seem perpendicular to the wheels :-(

Anyways, my passenger's side is definetly not 90* perpendicular to the tire, so when I adjust it, it looked like it was doing toe...

for the upper bearing mount plates:

If the adjustment is perpendicular with the wheels it's Camber adjustment.
If the adjustment is parallel with the wheels it's Castor adjustment.

Correct? Which way should the adjustment be?

Guess it's time to adjust them once more... which means completely disassembling the suspension... I heard there was a way to take the camber plates/upper bearing mounts off without having to disassemble the whole suspension, but the damper is screwed down to the plate, and the rebound valve adjustment goes through the engine bay, even with the lower control arm all the way down... Time to get a tie-rod remover, the bolts are startin to get mucked up from hitting them with a hammer :-/

kung fu grip

i had cusco camber plates on a previous car. one side "looked" upside down, but it was most likely a way to save a little on the manufacturing costs, rather than have two separate cnc programs.

however, the upper mount on tha car only had two bolts. if you say one of your pillow mounts looks perpendicular and the other doesn't, it may be that you were accidentally given two of the same side pillow mounts. they may be handed (one for the right, one for the left).

camber is mesured in degrees and it's measurement is the angle the wheels are angled along an imaginary centerline running the length of the car (fore and aft). basically, negative camber means the wheels are angled inwards towards the center of the car, positive means they are angled outward from the center.

castor is also an angular measurement. it measures the angle of the steering axis, simply put.

here is a good FAQ to read:

here

fireant

Hey, dont despair Ocelaris. I actually considered turning my struts so the camber plates became caster plates and using crash bolts only for camber. Having some extra caster will help to gain negative camber while you are in a turn..which is technically the only time you really need it.

Some sneaky autocrossers have even resorted to flossing the upper strut mounting holes with a file to get some wiggle room for caster.

Ocelaris

Thanks, KFG & H2k,
I hadn't even considered they might be handed, switched or beth! I was almost positive that they were omni-directional i.e. non-handed, Because I could set one on top of each other and they looked identical. But now that I think about it, the car is definetly handed, and I would have had to invert one in order to make it fit. I think that solves that... Or at least a good point, I was lost before.

That FAQ is wonderful... haven't got time to read it all now (read most), but like Hatch2k said, a little extra caster is what I'm gonna try to 'get' out of them... actually they obviously can go on more than 1 way... so not sure at this point what I'll end up with, but 2 choices nonetheless...

Lst time I got an alignment, the shop managed to get my steering wheel crooked when it's going straight, is that just a tie rod adjustment? I'd like to try it myself sometime, just not sure if it's worth the $, but I got lotsa time and not alotta money. Is it worth it buying a caster/camber tool? I know you can do toe-in with some conduit and nylon line, but I figure hell I've already got my suspension apart this many times, maybe I'll wanna do it in the future... i.e. cost of camber/caster tool I thought was like 100$ and toe stuff is ~20$ Figure the cost of 2 alignments pays for it...

Thanks

kung fu grip

one quick piece add about a diy alignment. after you do the alignments, shake of *just* lift ease carner off the ground. without slip plates, the tires gripping the surface will give you inaccurate readings.