Chris N

I'm taking a tangent off the other topic on the first page - the oil burning topic.

I burnt 2 quarts of oil in one track event at MAM two weeks ago. 15w40 Schaeffer's to be exact. (I used to burn 10w30 and 5w30 just the same.) I was on the track at MAM for approximately 150+ miles. This is excessive for my car. One quart a day was understandable, but two? Whoa. And driving 500 miles at 90mph through Iowa and Illinois.. I burnt another 3/4 of a quart. Hrm, never had that problem before.

Some of Tuan's comments in the other thread made me wonder about what was really going on. Burning isn't the same as leaking, obviously. Burning some oil off in the high revs/high temps appears to be normal....

With so many Rs out there losing oil slowly but surely, what is going on? My compression is in the 230/225 area, so I don't have bad rings, i don't think. Yet I'm still burning quite a bit of oil whenever I'm above/at 5000rpm.... Many other R's have the same problem: high compression readings, but excessive oil issues. Other R's (locally, I can think of a few who burn NO oil and a few who burn like me) don't burn a drop. And what is a leakdown going to tell me? Not the whole story, is it?

It may be due to break-in, it may not. If it isn't the rings for most of us, what the hell could it be? (a number of things I'm sure, but I don't know ALL the possible things it could be...)

Please no info but first hand, intelligent, scientific-type info. I.e., you've tore down your engine, you know what you are talking about, you have some type of GOOD info, etc. I may not know everything, but there is nothing worse than all this misinformation about everything.

i've scanned through my Helms to learn as much as I can about what's going on, but with so many of us who just don't the knowledge, this search for 'where the oil is going' is endless and frustrating.


Modified by Chris N at 6:38 PM 9/17/2003

Bbasso

Yeah what Chris said!

Chris N

Thanks Rob!!

From another thread: Is this true/part of the issue?
If so, why do some R's burn NO oil on the track while others burn like mine, or worse?? We are all in the high rpm ranges.....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jaker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your oil comsumption problems are directly related to RPMs. If you're bagging on it, it will burn oil, and that is because the R/S ratio is such that the rings can't seal properly at high rpms because the bores are fubared. The rod is pushing the piston into the side of the bore with alot more force at high rpms, and the rings are wearing, and also fluttering because of a tapered and out of round cylinder bore.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Edit: Another good thread:
http://www.team-integra.net/fo...earch

If you don't have an account at TI, you should.

Chris - just trying to collect good info to help the peoples (and me).

oryanh

I'm in the same boat. Just fed up with this oil burning thing. If Honda said it was normal, I would be able to sleep at night... If I could convince myself that the 1% out there that say they don't burn oil were lying or running 90W-90 then yeah... But c'mon, we need answers!
I will give one million dollars to who ever finds conclusive evidence proving the real cause of this!


disclaimer:
About the million dollar thing... not really.

Big Phat R

Just think of the envelope of performance B18C5's function in - extremely high rpms x high cylinder pressure = oil loss.

I personally think its due to high crankcase pressure and blow-by.

I'm hoping an external oil cooler with stabilize oil temperatures and reduce oil consumption.

But I have the same problem too - even with Motul 15W-50 Race oil.

Bbasso

SO would you say an oil cooler might have some effects on saving oil along with the reg stuff it does?

uncleben

Good post.
And exactly the same question I have been asking myself since I bought #1214 from BlackDragon nearly 1.5 years ago (24000 miles). I just put Mobil1 15w50 in the aarRRR last week in hope of making a difference. I've tried 5w30/10w30 Mobil1, Castrol Syn, Quaker Syn, and now this. So far, all previous oils have been burning (or dissappearing?) like crazy. Yes, I drive the **** out of my car every day. I was actually surprised when I heard someone say of their Honda, "I try and get in VTEC at least once a week when daily driving". I try and get in VTEC every time the car goes out for more than 10 minutes (after warming up of course). So could it be I'm (some of us) driving the R too hard?

No I don't think so. Case in point: I went to the track with a 98 ITR friend. He had double the mileage as me, both running 10w30 or 5w30 syn. We chased each other all day (him one more session then me in fact) driving the crap out of the cars. At the end of the day, we both checked our dip-sticks and his was right on the line, mine was half to a full-quart low. So it's something else, it has to be.

The other day I passed a friend in VTEC and as I shifted into 3rd he saw a huge cloud of smoke billow out the exhaust. He says mostly dark, not white, which is not what I would expect for burning oil, right?

Anyway, sorry Chris, no real useful info (well maybe a tad), but wanted to share my examples too. I've been checking the dip-stick every day for the last 400 miles or so since I started using Mobil1 15w50 and so far I can't notice a change, but that's not many miles and 150 of those were on a highway trip not in VTEC. So I'll continue to monitor it and let you know what I find. (still in VTEC every day too, heh )

Tweakmeister

Have you done a leakdown?

To me 15w40 sounds overkill. I run 5w30 now...will be switching to 0w40 soon.

Chris N

I'm glad others have the same concerns.

15w40 might be overkill, I agree. It was an experiment, at first I used 2 qts of 10w30 schaffer's and 2 qts of 15w40. That experiment was a waste. I did straight 15w40 for the drive to/from MAM and the event. Burninated. I have a case of it (well, now I have 4.5 left i think), so I'll probably use it for my last track event or two at gingerman this year. I put 5w30 and/or 10w30 in for the street and winter. i don't burn oil in daily driving situations, or even on the highway, except when I go 90mph for extended periods of time... I just found that out.

I'm going to get a leakdown this weekend if possible, or next. We'll see what happens. What irks me is that some R's burn, while others aren't, and they appear to have been taken care of in similar manners. I chased (and was chased by) Lance for many laps at MAM two weeks ago. We were both driving equally hard, and virtually the same speed. Lance burned little/no oil, Double A (brewcityR) burned NO oil (and I drove with him, AND drove his car close to how I drive mine), yet I burn a ton.

BPR said crankcase pressure and blow by is a symptom.... I agree.
Larry (endyn) has those extra crankcase pressure release hoses since his 2.0L b18 has such high flow/pressure. I wonder if this is overkill for a stock-internal b18c5?

Ben - thanks for the input. None of us here has the definitive answer. So most anything is helpful.

So far what I've come up with is:
1. Compression (but since most of us don't have compression issues, not really applicable)
2. Leak-down
3. Dye test for leaks (it should be obvious if there is a leak like this, this is only good for actually finding it...)
4. Inspect gaskets, seals, etc, in cylinder head
5. Pull the head and check for slightly bent valves, mushroomed valves, excessive carbon buildup on pistons, damage of any kind, valve seals, etc... what else?
6. anything else?
Preventative measures:

1. Properly installed catch can
2. Oil Cooler (not the stock one, an upgraded one)
3. Oil Temp/Pressure gauges to monitor the situation
4. Baffled oil pan (like D's baffled stock pan, I refuse to pay for a mugen or moroso pan when the stock one can be modified, more to prevent oil starvation/loss of vtec in tight turns on the track)
5. what else?

Has anyone tried using Auto RX? I have heard really good things about this. I doubt it would fix oil consumption/burning/leaking, but it could help to clean up, can't hurt....
http://www.auto-rx.com/

I think my post has run its course... I'm hoping this thread can get a good deal of feedback/input.

DarthLuder

Just ask Bush, where the oil is at.

Chris N

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITR GURU &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just ask Bush, where the oil is at. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You know I like to joke around, etc, but this is a pretty serious issue that I REALLY want input/feedback on, especially from those who tear engines apart/put them back together frequently.

Ivan

I know this may sound stupid but what were the breaking in procedures for your cars? did you have it since new? buy it used? I only say this because I'm using typer pistons and rings in my car, only difference is I didn't take it easy on break in. I followed the instructions on that one website. my motor is strong, really strong. no oil consumption at all.

Chris N

My car didn't consume oil until I started to track the car. I do not consume oil on the street/around town, except for the one instance of 90mph for 500 miles. (we left about 1 hour after my last session, and didn't stop for more than 10 minutes except once to eat. hardly time for the engine to recover, so i can understand how i kept burning on the highway)

It has more to do with temps and high revs for prolonged periods of time than break in.

So far... of the local friends I can account for: Aaron is the 2nd or 3rd owner of his car, no burn. Lance is the only owner - no burning. I am the only owner, burning. Mugen mike's car has had a few owners, lots of burn. Dave's engine - burn. (although who knows what was done to that engine in japan for its first 40K...) All driven pretty respectable on the street, I didn't take it too easy or go to hard on the new car.

Of all the people I've heard from, talked to, or read about, there is no rhyme or reason. All those that track their cars who don't burn on the street, they either burn a little bit (expected), a good deal, or none at all. Weird.

Ivan, have you tracked your car, as in 20-30 minute sessions on a road course? This is the only environment that I have consumption. I'd be interested to see how your motor does in that situation, although I'm almost certain that the issue we are discussing is not the rings on the pistons, but an issue with something in the head, not the block.

It makes sense that oil is burned on the track... but to what extent?
Burning it on the street, now that is a real serious issue, IMO.

Ivan

I've heard of the oil ring going bad though. see I have this theory. most people that don't plan on keeping their car and giving it all hell once they buy it.. then someone comes and buys it used and everything is fine. now someone like us that plan on keeping the car for a while baby it and then take it to the track, the car isn't use to it and neither are the internals. also when your oil control ring goes bad I don't think it shows up on a compression test. I think it might come up in a leakdown but not compression.

SurferX

Those with an aftermarket header (or no heatshield), do you notice tons of oil buildup around where the dipstick tube enters the block? I think we leak alot of oil out of there, I know I do.

Chris

My car started consuming oil about 20k miles. Mostly hard street and track miles.

smoke at high RPM ONLY (VTEC+) and towards the end, I was burning a quart in 20 min on the track.

Compression numbers were great, and so was leakdown..

OIL RINGS.

those were bad, and couldnt keep the cylinder walls clean anymore.

replaced... all was better... (Much better, went with .025 over CTR pistons and B&B bottom end )

EDIT..

The pistons (I still have them) had most of the moly coating removed from the sides.. I was told thats normal for high RPM use.. I dunno.

Dirt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris N &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It has more to do with temps and high revs for prolonged periods of time than break in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was gonna bring up the break-in theory, whatever it is, but I have no idea if my C5 was cared for during break in or how it was broken in.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Aaron is the 2nd or 3rd owner of his car, no burn. </TD></TR></TABLE>

4th owner actually. The CARFAX showed that the 1st owner had it for roughly 3 years and under 7,000 miles. Car was purchased and stored in Naples, FL. 2nd owner (former H-T member I guess) had it for less than a year and drove less than 5,000 miles. 3rd owner, who I bought it from, used it for a daily driver for about 12,000 miles. Granted, it never saw track use (from the history that I received) but it was stored and kept in a warm climate for over half its life meaning cold starts weren't as harsh as our winter start ups. Ok, I'm rambling and dunno what to think of your oil murder mystery.

Chris N

I used to 'drool' oil out of there, then my dipstick t00b came loose.

I took it all out, cleaned the area, let it dry, JB welded it back on, and have not even a little stain there anymore.

Ivan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My car started consuming oil about 20k miles. Mostly hard street and track miles.

smoke at high RPM ONLY (VTEC+) and towards the end, I was burning a quart in 20 min on the track.

Compression numbers were great, and so was leakdown..

OIL RINGS.

those were bad, and couldnt keep the cylinder walls clean anymore.

replaced... all was better... (Much better, went with .025 over CTR pistons and B&B bottom end )

EDIT..

The pistons (I still have them) had most of the moly coating removed from the sides.. I was told thats normal for high RPM use.. I dunno.</TD></TR></TABLE>yup...Like I said...oil rings.

Chris N

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
OIL RINGS.

those were bad, and couldnt keep the cylinder walls clean anymore.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oil rings, eh? How did you finally determine that you this was your problem?

Ivan

aaron.. but you don't know what the break in was. for me, the most critical break in mileage is the very first miles. I'm pretty sure the first owner of your car got on it right off the dealer lot. I mean when I built my motor, I couldn't wait

Type-Rare#1248

i noticed that i burned alot more oil after i switched to an aftermarket SS header...i was wonder if under the hood temperatures have a lot to do with burning oil

does everyone who burn oil here have an aftermarket header with no heatshield?

magic hat #9

my compression test showed the motor was spot on, but my car has always burnt at least 1qt every 3000 miles. in fact, when i bought the car new with 9 miles on the odo, i broke it in real nice like and burned almost a full quart in the first 1000 miles. i've also gotten the car dynoed (i'm getting it dynoed again tomorrow) and came up with 167whp bone stock. the oil burning is weird too, i can go through 1qt in 3000 street miles, 1.5qts in a 2 day hpde, or burn nothing after a full day of hpde. i've learned to live with it and always have oil handy. the way i see it is my motor is always being fed fresh oil every 500 miles

Chris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oil rings, eh? How did you finally determine that you this was your problem? </TD></TR></TABLE>


to be completely honest... I dont.

Information I gathered when I was researching the problem was that if it were compression rings... that it would show up in a compression test, heh.

If it were bad valves, it would smoke at idle more (most vacuum) and fail a leakdown.

Compression and leakdown were excellent, so I assumed oil rings.

Once it was all replaced... I sold the car before I got to really drive it.

It had 20 miles on the new motor and a few hours of idling and heat cycles.

Its now living a life of USTCC, WCHC, and garage sitting in Anahiem.

Chris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type-Rare#1248 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">idoes everyone who burn oil here have an aftermarket header with no heatshield?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was using the JDM header..WITH the shield. *shrugs*